M77 Replaces Moly 60- Apparently So

dwalby said:
yep, its mission critical. Here's the ST1100 owner's manual instructions regarding splines.

View attachment splines.pdf
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I would call it more of a learning curve :rofl1:
If you research Honda shaft drive bikes starting with the CX500, you'll see that they used grease until they kept failing, then as the Models grew, 650, Goldwings, etc. They had a period were they used antiseaze, grease, moly, etc.
Kinda of a work in progress thing. I'm guessing your page is from a rather early ST1100 manual :rolleyes:
Just because they did it in the begining, would you still want to do that, or would you rather learn from their mistakes and find something better?
 
Igofar said:
I would call it more of a learning curve :rofl1:
If you research Honda shaft drive bikes starting with the CX500, you'll see that they used grease until they kept failing, then as the Models grew, 650, Goldwings, etc. They had a period were they used antiseaze, grease, moly, etc.
Kinda of a work in progress thing. I'm guessing your page is from a rather early ST1100 manual :rolleyes:

Just because they did it in the begining, would you still want to do that, or would you rather learn from their mistakes and find something better?
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I would tend to agree with your learning curve assessment. I think that's why one page in my 91-99 service manual still says regular moly grease for splines, and another says moly paste, they were in the transitional period going from one recommendation to the other. BTW, my owner's manual page was from 1997.

As I've said before, and you criticized me for doing so, I've successfully used both moly grease and moly paste on my splines, so I'm not all that worried about it. Since I rarely ride in rain I'm not worried about wash-out, or water intrusion causing rust, otherwise I might be more concerned than I am. I've seen the pictures of damaged splines, so I'm not discounting the realities of lubrication failure, but my own empirical evidence suggests its not a black/white case where one lubricant will always work, and another will always fail, its not as simple as that.
 
So, I've now read 17 pages and my head hurts. I see lots of talk on the paste, grease, snake oil, and 'alien lubes', but no one has sent in their destroyed final drives to have the metallurgy tested for deviations from the specified metal involved? Seriously, do you people really believe that a product produced for the mass market at a price they can afford is really made to Space Shuttle specifications? Or maybe my 30 years with DOD has jaded my perspective towards, "made to specifications XY&Z". In the meantime, I will continue to use I90 Motorsports as my service center who are undoubtedly using Honda M77 as my final drive lubricant. When it fails, as the 'scientific' pundits state, I'll invite you all to join in my class action suit against Honda Motorsports so we can all get free final drives... Vicodin, where's my Vicodin?[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]
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....I90 Motorsports ... are undoubtedly using Honda M77 as my final drive lubricant
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You don’t know what they actually use on your splines, and apparently have never seen their current condition... :confused:

JMNSHO, but for peace of mind I’d sure at leaST ask them to show me what they use! And how much trouble would it be in the interest of good customer relations to show me my splines (hey, if I can’t be there, a cell phone picture would be welcome!).

As a great man once said: “Trust, but verify.”

Not knowing would drive me crazy... like when 1,000 miles from home, late on a Saturday night on a lonely 1 1/2 lane road 40 miles outside BFE, in a driving sleet storm.... :eek:

John
 
Whether or not Honda specifies M77 is not being questioned. Whether or not Honda M77 meets the specification called out by Honda for spline lubrication is what is being questioned as a result of confusion created by Honda them self. I have seen an Honda (automotive division) internal document that states in writing that Honda M77 is "A high-molybdenum-content paste that polishes more than it lubricates. Use it on the back of brake pads and on brake shims". There is no mention of it being intended for splines. Even though it is the automotive division it is the same M77 product. My local Honda Motorcycle dealer still has several tubes of Moly 60 for their own use in their shop. They won't sell any of it to me because they cannot get more. When they have none left they are not sure what they will use. They are hoping that Honda will have clarified this issue by that time. They submitted a technical request to Honda to that end.
 
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On being asked, I had one shop tell me "oh it didn't need any--there was some still on it". They wouldn't open it back up to show me or to correct it. That was the last time I used them for tire changes.

I tried to buy Honda Moly 60 from another shop, who said "we don't stock it as we have something just as good." I asked what they used and they showed me some red honey-textured moly assembly lube with <3% MoS2 they had on the shelf. On challenging them, they insisted it was as good as Honda Moly 60 and feigned further discussion about it. That was the last time I used that shop.

So I bought my own tire changer and I've a number of Honda Moly 60 tubes on the shelf (bought extra when I heard they were discontinuing it). Problem solved.

If I were out of Honda Moly 60 today? I'd buy one of those that are similar to Honda Moly 60 (see post #138)...there are plenty of options available.

What's most important is to clean the spline and use fresh Moly 60 equivalent each time--don't be miserly.

If you have someone else do tire changes, don't assume your mechanic is taking care of it for you (ask!).
 
BakerBoy said:
What's most important is to clean the spline and use fresh Moly 60 equivalent each time--don't be miserly.
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But I never did this, or did it very infrequently, and have normal looking splines after about 15 tire changes.

On the failed drives what did we know about the maintenance history? Did somebody not lube the splines for 10 years, take yearly rides on the beach at Daytona, then put M77 on it once when the splines were 0.001" away from total failure and then blame the lubricant? Also, is it possible that some bikes had wheel splines and final drive splines at opposite ends of the manufacturing dimensional tolerances, so they were more sloppy to begin with, and more prone to failure. Were there possible metallurgy issues with some bikes?

I ask this because I've done everything wrong based on the common wisdom of the forum, and had no ill effects for 21 years of ST ownership. So I can't believe the brand of moly is going to make that big a difference on its own, there have to be other factors involved.
 
In response to your first question, the photos of the damaged rear splines was on a ST1300A (not an ST1100 like yours).
The Dealer Replaced the entire Final Driven Flange set (42630-MCS-G00) with a new OEM part, then applied the M-77 Paste (verified) on this new part.
The new part lasted only a few hundred miles, and was chewed up pretty bad (as verified in photos).
Now, this may have been caused by not replacing both the Flange set, and the Pumpkin as a pair.
Its very likely that the damage on the Pumpkin destroyed the Flange set splines (on this one bike) as the dealer probably took the cheapest route in getting a used bike ready to sell by only replacing the one part.
However, I have seen two or three others, that I have been servicing for the past few years, that were always in good condition (no spline wear) up until the owners were forced to go to a dealership for a tire change while out traveling etc.
When they returned, the very next time the wheels were removed, spline damage was noted, and they were told that the dealers used the M-77 Grease/Paste because the old Honda stuff was no longer available.
I have an idea, why don't you take your 21 year old ST1100 to the dealership and let them service your rear wheel and splines and see how that works for you :rofl1:
I have been serving the ST1300's for many years, and its just lately (introduction of M77 grease) that I have started seeing spline damage.
YMMV
 
Being new to the St1300 ownership, looking to do some preventative maintenance and lubing the rear splines is one of them!

I don't have anything on hand to start with, understand Honda Moly 60 is discontinued. Anyway that can be had? If not, is this the cheapest and closest alternative:https://www.rshughes.com/p/Loctite-...own-As-Loctite-Moly-Paste-51048/079340_51048/ ?

Would appreciate advice and help on it. Thanks all :07biker:
 
I just bought the Loctite moly based anti seize (I think #8012). Used it on my vmax, haven't had the opportunity to use it on either of my Hondas yet.

It's fairly readily available, although might need to be ordered. A tool supply store like grainger and fastenal can probably order it and have it next day.
 
Joeywhat said:
I just bought the Loctite moly based anti seize (I think #8012). Used it on my vmax, haven't had the opportunity to use it on either of my Hondas yet.

It's fairly readily available, although might need to be ordered. A tool supply store like grainger and fastenal can probably order it and have it next day.
Click to expand...

Curious, how much did you pay? Guess I am gonna get that too.
 
BakerBoy said:
What's most important is to clean the spline and use fresh Moly 60 equivalent each time--don't be miserly.
Click to expand...
If we are following Hondas initial recommendation to use M Paste, then we might as well follow their directive to use 3 grams of the stuff to relube after cleaning. After all, Mother (Honda) knows best.....:bow1:
 
Anyone tried the aerosol can? Price seems reasonable, and spraying it on seems like a good method.

https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-1852755-8012-Paste-Aerosol/dp/B0742N4J2X#feature-bullets-btf



 
Jjonahjamison said:
Anyone tried the aerosol can? Price seems reasonable, and spraying it on seems like a good method.

https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-1852755-8012-Paste-Aerosol/dp/B0742N4J2X#feature-bullets-btf
Click to expand...

Seems like the way to go. Will have to see what the moly debate experts have to say about that option. Interesting...
Finally went and looked at my tube of Honda Moly 77. It doesn't have the CH at the end of the part number. Sigh....
 
I bought the paste from Rshughes and it arrived quickly even though it was back ordered. The shipping was pretty expensive though.
 
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