There is a lot more to molybdenum than any of us thought!! Google why molybdenun goes bad and you will find many articles like this one https://fixyourgut.com/molybdenum-the-important-mineral-that-nutritionists-forgot/
M77 Replaces Moly 60- Apparently So
- Thread starter Andrew Shadow
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Al, now you've gone and done it!
We can lube our splines with cows liver? But what percentage? :chef2:
Upt'North.
I'll say, I read the part about alcoholics being especially low on moly, so now I went and coated my scotch glasses with a thin coat.
Maybe also worthwhile mentioning Molykote G-n, top recommendation in Service Manual, ref post from Portupan.
But don't we want the new Moly 60 (whatever that might be)?
Is it possible that PolySi (who makes lubricants for other companies) was handed a tube of the Honda M-77 grease/paste and asked to "produce this stuff"?
They may simply be making the same stuff that Honda thought was correct in error?
They may simply be making the same stuff that Honda thought was correct in error?
OP
OP
Andrew Shadow
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The PolySi safety data sheet that Dwalby received from PolySi states that it has 60 to 70% molybdenum. That is a higher moly content than the Honda Moly 60 had.
the bottom line is the service manual says nothing more than "moly paste >40% moly content" so extrapolating any other requirement beyond that is pure guesswork. And if you want to believe this page in the Honda manual, even 3% moly is acceptable.
Based on what I gleaned from the various spec sheets, the PolySi product appears to be at the lower end of the moly performance spectrum, but I can't say that necessarily disqualifies it from being acceptable for this application.
Based on what I gleaned from the various spec sheets, the PolySi product appears to be at the lower end of the moly performance spectrum, but I can't say that necessarily disqualifies it from being acceptable for this application.
OP
OP
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
The PolySi data sheet that you posted states 60-70% molybdenum content which is well above the minimum 40%. Curious to know what it is about it that puts it on the lower end compared to other products with the same or less moly content.
One of the industry standards for extreme pressure lubrication testing is the 4 ball weld test (google it for details). The PolySi score was the lowest of all the greases I compared, but since we don't know what is required to keep splines in good condition its hard to make any conclusion from those numbers. The slowest runner in an Olympic event is still fast enough to outrun any of us, so without a reference number, once again we're just guessing with no basis for our guesses.
edit: the other thing I found in comparing the 4-ball test figures is more moly did not guarantee higher test numbers. So what I concluded from that data is the main benefit of putting in a lot more moly is not to provide the ultimate level of lubrication, but to keep the paste in place once its applied. I'm pretty sure the worst lubrication numbers are achieved with grease that disappears from the application for whatever reason and bare metal contact ensues. Having more moly solids appears to provide two advantages, the paste consistency will tend to stick to its application better, and even if it eventually gets pushed out of the boundary layer the dry moly solids will continue to adhere to the metal and still provide good lubrication even if some of the paste carrier gets pushed out.
MoSO2 only exists as a solid, so the moly % is by definition the amount of moly solids in it. Because moly has a texture similar to graphite, the higher percentage of it present, the more 'pasty' the texture of the grease. The base grease is the carrier for the moly solids, there is no such thing as "moly grease" in an elemental form.
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John OoSTerhuis
Life Is Good!
We’ve known about the error on p14-2 for over 25 years. It’s cleared up on the next page and confirmed on p1-21. FWIW
My tube of Honda Moly 60 must be 20 years old but still works fine. If I ever run out I’ll get the Loctite stuff. YMMV
John
+1 Mr DWalby.
As far as I am aware Moly is a solid added in different quantities to different products in different ratio's. And I wished I could remember where I read it, but it stated that grease is below 40% Moly and Paste is above 40% Moly. Which sort of makes sense because of the visual appearance of the product and gives clear guidance to users without reaching for TDS's. I can't imagine many repair shops debating this issue, they just place the order for grease or paste. But to add my own two'penneth, isn't paste just a thicker grease; it's still grease, something has to carry the Moly.
Now we come to the more is better argument. Why?
Is hypoid 90 better than hypoid 80?
Is 20w50 better than 10w40?
Is 20w fork oil better than 10w?
I recently provided some information from Molyslip where there genius stated the AS40 was the baby for the job, before the ink was dry on the email others were saying that they made a 60. Yes they do but it's not for this application.
Will the 60 be better than the 40. I doubt it to be honest, all that spline needs is a coating of Moly as per Honda and a grease to carry the solid in.
FWIW.
Upt'North.
As far as I am aware Moly is a solid added in different quantities to different products in different ratio's. And I wished I could remember where I read it, but it stated that grease is below 40% Moly and Paste is above 40% Moly. Which sort of makes sense because of the visual appearance of the product and gives clear guidance to users without reaching for TDS's. I can't imagine many repair shops debating this issue, they just place the order for grease or paste. But to add my own two'penneth, isn't paste just a thicker grease; it's still grease, something has to carry the Moly.
Now we come to the more is better argument. Why?
Is hypoid 90 better than hypoid 80?
Is 20w50 better than 10w40?
Is 20w fork oil better than 10w?
I recently provided some information from Molyslip where there genius stated the AS40 was the baby for the job, before the ink was dry on the email others were saying that they made a 60. Yes they do but it's not for this application.
Will the 60 be better than the 40. I doubt it to be honest, all that spline needs is a coating of Moly as per Honda and a grease to carry the solid in.
FWIW.
Upt'North.
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Yes - a glaring omission - but intentional - since Dow Corning have recently changed their website and G-n paste no longer seems to feature. However, I have added G-n paste to the table with the appropriate links, including a link to the Dow Data sheet from another source - which matches the one that I downloaded a few months back from the old Dow site.
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Possibly inferred from the Honda Service manual ?
Just before Page 1-1 (in my copy) it defines the grease symbols that it uses:
For (M) it says Use Molybdenum Disulphide grease (containing >3% MoS2, NGLI #2)
for (MP) it says 'Use Molybdenum Disulphide paste (containing >40% MoS2, NLGI #2)
But that isn't a definition of the terms Paste and Grease, but I can see how that inference could be drawn.
As for the bigger numbers - it isn't always to do with bigger / better / newer / faster. Sometimes the bigger numbers actually mean something a bit more significant. You could try putting ordinary general purpose Moly grease onto your splines to test your theory. Make sure you have some old brake pads fitted, and a good supply of degreaser, as after a decent ride you will be spending a happy afternoon cleaning out the hub, the splines, the brake disc rotor and refitting your good pads, as the others will be well lubricated from the streaks of grease which have spun out from the hub.
I know because years back, I carried out a controlled scientific experiment of this nature, purely to test the structural integrity of the lubricating compound. At least, that is what I call it now.
Interesting. Still widely available here in the US from multiple sources, including Amazon. Maybe time to stock up?
I hate to even bring it up again, because of the stern lecturing I'll receive as a result, but I've done this a few times over the years (dabbed a bit of 3% moly on the splines because I didn't have moly 60 in the garage) ran it for the lifespan of the rear tire, and never encountered the problems you describe. And, I think the tub of 3% moly I used was probably purchased in the mid-'80s just in case we want to cover the shelf life topic while we're here.
its still there on this Dow webpage:
https://www.dow.com/en-us/products/MolykoteBrandPastes#sort=@gtitle ascending
of note: the molykote G (without the -n) is the only one of several on that page that I clicked on that states the moly content, at 60%
