M77 Replaces Moly 60- Apparently So

Works good!! Made for splines and gears, used on BMW here at dealership
and easy to get...
hi Guys - this "Liqui Moly 2003 Mos2 Long-Life Grease" is easily available on amazon Canada but it has 2.5-5% graphite which I read that it is no good - is it still no good ?
I cant find "Loctite 234227 LOC51048 Moly Paste" in Canada - i called napa and Fastenal no luck - i can get it from ebay.ca but i have to pay shipping and customs/duties so any other Canadian alternatives ? thank you

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hi Guys - this "Liqui Moly 2003 Mos2 Long-Life Grease" is easily available on amazon Canada but it has 2.5-5% graphite which I read that it is no good - is it still no good ?
I cant find "Loctite 234227 LOC51048 Moly Paste" in Canada - i called napa and Fastenal no luck - i can get it from ebay.ca but i have to pay shipping and customs/duties so any other Canadian alternatives ? thank you

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WOW...didn't know that!!! What is the problem with graphite I wonder??? Beemer guys use it for their spines and stuff, just curious???
 
duties so any other Canadian alternatives ?
Precious few auto parts will have it on the shelf but they should be able to order it easy enough. I ordered a can from Bumper-to-Bumper Canada and it was there in less than 24 hrs.
 
Used Loctite 8012 and it didn't perform well. Completely dried up and gone in 10K. Splines took a beating. Switched to TS70, see if thats better.
 
Hi Guys . . . . I realise this is something of a historical thread but a subject which remains very much of interest.
I owned a 98 ST1100 and kept it for 10000 trouble free miles. 26 years later and I am now revisiting the shaft-drive fraternity having purchased a 2024 BMW R1250R.

The BMW forums are full of horror stories about shaft drive issues, mainly as a result of BMW themselves precluding the requirement for any routine maintenance whatsoever of the final drive shaft. As if this isn’t bad enough, both the front and back ends of the shafts are sealed from water ingress by two poorly-fitting rubber boots which, all too easily, allow the ingress of water. Add to the mix, that most models produced over the last 10-15 years don’t include a drain hole for the egress of the former and you have a recipe for trouble . . . namely spline wear and corrosion where the final drive shaft splines become “welded” to the rear wheel bevel box and thus inseparable.

To their credit, BMW have now introduced annual lubrication of the driveshaft splines into the maintenance schedule and somewhat incredibly, the majority of bikes are now entitled to receive a new final drive shaft which BMW will replace every 36000 miles, free of charge for life!! Although my 1250R is one of the entitled steeds, I believe the new 1300 is exempt as it has a totally redesigned shaft drive. So . . . you ST boys don’t have it all your own way. BMW have been making these since before the first eruption of Vesuvius and it seems they still can’t get it right.

Anyway, after forum reports of new bikes leaving the factory with dry splines from the outset, I figured it would be sensible to pull my shaft and lube up right from the get go and therein lies my problem and the reason for reading this humungous thread from start to finish.

Before I expose the nuts and bolts of my dilemma, let me briefly describe the architecture. . . . .

The gearbox output from the boxer engine comprises a short splined male shaft with a circumferential groove cut into it halfway up its length. The “cardan” shaft (BMW’s posh name for the shaft) comprises a universal joint at each end, attached to which is the female splined receiver. The end of the shaft which slides onto the gearbox “stub”, contains a recessed circlip so that when the shaft is slid onto the output shaft, the circlip slots into the groove in the output shaft and thus it semi-locks the shaft onto the stub.

At the bevel box end, the same a applies but as there is no circlip, the joint is free to slide a little as the suspension moves.

Now then, I have an official BMW service manual which recommends the use of Castrol Opimol Paste TA to lubricate the splines – Previously known as optomoly paste TA. When the Optomoly paste was rebrandedto Optomol, many owners thought it was no longer available and shifted to another Castrol product called Optimol Paste White T. . . . . thus, the recommended product was now known as Optomol Paste TA which was and is still available, despite many BMW suppliers and specialists now recommending and selling Otomol Paste White. Nowhere have I found any official documentation from BMW recommending this product.

Now then, let’s really muddy the waters – I have checked the Data sheets for both these products and despite the inclusion of “mol” in each of their names, there is more molybdenum contained in a toffee-yogurt than in 10 metric tonnes of either of these products. Their lubricity is derived entirely from the inclusion of graphite.

OK . . . a little more mud. If perchance, you decide to buy a cardan shaft and fit it yourself, BMW are good enough to provide you with a small tube of lubricant which comes with the shaft. It has an official BMW part number and can be purchased separately but for the sake of clarity, it is Klubergrease LFT71-402 and not the recommended Optomol Paste TA. That said, both products have something in common – not one molecule of molybdenum or disulphide is contained in either

A review of the forum chats soon reveals BMW owners discussing what lube/grease or paste they should be using and of course . . . the importance of moly is a constant theme, as is the recommendation to use Honda Moly 60 as being the universal panacea for all spline wear . As you might imagine, they are slowly coming to realise that it is no longer available and are becoming more reconciled to using the BMW-approved products but as of now, I don't believe I have seen a single post that draws attention to the moly-free status of BMW's recommended products.

So . . therein lies my dilemma. I need to strip the shaft out and check whether or not the factory applied any lube and then lube it regardless but what the hell do I use?

I’m tempted to think a moly paste is the way to go and after having taken a week off work to read through this thread, decided that LB8012 would prove my salvation . . . that is, until the latest remarks and anecdotal evidence which has cast a shadow over even this product.
Could it be, the design of the BMW shaft drive makes a moly paste somewhat redundant and the Optomol/Klubergrease will indeed cut it??
I was fascinated to read an earlier comment that the front shaft splines of the ST only require greasing with a 3% moly grease – clearly, there is something different about the Honda rear drive splines which requires more protection and maybe the BMW design means that both front and back ends can be adequately protected with Optomol.

If I had more faith in BMW, then I would simply slap Optomol paste over everything but my confidence has been somewhat dented by the above. . . . BMW’s failure to include driveshaft maintenance in the routine servicing schedule, the apparent contradictions in their recommended spline lubricants and their apparent acceptance their design is so poor that they are prepared to routinely replace driveshafts free of charge for life.

Hey ho . . . decisions decisions. Perchance I should have kept my Pan. Anyone on here have it S457 TWC
 
until the latest remarks and anecdotal evidence which has cast a shadow over even this product.

I believe you’ve answered your own question. There is very little evidence showing that the Loctite 8012 product is ineffective and many on this forum have used it without any issues for years.

Whether that meshes with your “Beemer” is not for me to say but IMHO, sounds like an opportunity for some trials and testing.

What % of moly content does BMW recommend?
 
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As Mentioned - the products recommended by BMW contain no molybdenum at all - zilch!!
This is my main concern to be honest
 
There must be other substances that provide excellent lubrication in a 'dry' situation that works under extreme pressure without galling.

But I would have no way of knowing what these are.


The above link - Post #33 on my pages. 21 Dec 2017. I got an answer to a query on this subject from Honda UK.
They say that they use Motul Tech Grease 300 in their dealerships. I got hold of the specs for this. That reply is reproduced in the above link.

To be honest I know nothing about how suitable this Motul stuff is for the splines, so I didn't go down that path. I have stuck with the Rocol Paste. It is specifiedby Honda and it is still manufactured and easily obtainable. But the Loctite has been proved to be a good alternative. I know too little about the T70 to add anything to what has been said already.

I also note that a Honda ST1100 manual that I have access to says apply General Purpose Grease - Molybdenum Disulphide additive to the splines. Although the front of the manual gives specs for the paste, the installation of the rear wheel doesn't asks for something different. Yet the ST1300 manual does. There must be either an error there, or a change of heart / experience.

I cannot think why the drive shaft of a BMW would require and different lubrication from that required by the ST1300.
 
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As Mentioned - the products recommended by BMW contain no molybdenum at all - zilch!!
This is my main concern to be honest
You're talking about lubing the driveshaft splines. Honda recommends driveshaft spline lubrication with a grease that contains very little moly as well. It is the drive splines in the wheel hub that require specialized lube with a high moly content. It seems that driveshaft splines are not that critical in the lube used.
 
You're talking about lubing the driveshaft splines. Honda recommends driveshaft spline lubrication with a grease that contains very little moly as well. It is the drive splines in the wheel hub that require specialized lube with a high moly content. It seems that driveshaft splines are not that critical in the lube used.
Ah, I’m not familiar with the design of the Honda drives but it seems the front drive splines in the Hondas are equivalent to both in the BMWs and we don’t have the equivalent to where the moly is being used in the Hondas. I’m struggling to picture it but it makes sense.
I think I’ll just stick to the stuff BMW are recommending as I have at least got to the bottom of their “dual” recommendation - Optomol paste was replaced by Klubergrease which is now the current recommendation.
I’ll say no more because this is a Honda forum but I thought it might add something to the debate knowing what BMW are using and why there might be a difference!
 
Most of the BMW service departments that I've been in used the old Honda Moly 60 :potstir1:
 
Used Loctite 8012 and it didn't perform well. Completely dried up and gone in 10K. Splines took a beating. Switched to TS70, see if thats better.
This could have been due to user error.
You need to stir up the product very well to mix things up before you apply it.
If you just took the brush and dipped it in the top of the stuff, you probably just had the carrier base.
I've been using it on Police motors, and civilian motors, escorts, and iron butt rider's bikes with good results, and the paste was still there 10K miles later when it came time to change the next tire.
 
This could have been due to user error.
You need to stir up the product very well to mix things up before you apply it.
If you just took the brush and dipped it in the top of the stuff, you probably just had the carrier base.
I've been using it on Police motors, and civilian motors, escorts, and iron butt rider's bikes with good results, and the paste was still there 10K miles later when it came time to change the next tire.
That sounds plausible. I’ ve read the thread fully and no one else has had an issue but that’s a useful caveat for folk to be aware of.
I will read the data sheet for the klubergrease and get a feeling for it.
It’s odd that none of the BMW-recommended products contain Moly and yet Honda take the stance that it is fundamentally necessary but then . . . . . Honda didn’t take the view that ongoing maintenance is unnecessary and then end up with thousands of bikes with fubarred shafts.
I‘’ve been researching further and reviewing in depth the number of BMW shaft failures and it’s interesting to note that whereas water ingress and corrosion causes the BMW splines to become inseparable, it is failure of the UJs (typically at around 50-60K miles) which has led to the bizarre lifetime warranty replacement every 35k miles.
If the shaft design is faulty, you would have thought it would be cheaper for BMW to redesign the UJs or just incorporate some grease nipples than replace them indefinitely for life
 
The pros and cons, availability, and much else has been covered in the preceding 19 pages, so I'll just add my views. First, several here have departed from their beloved ST, to be replaced for sundry reasons by the German bikes which share the shaft drive in common. Well, the principle anyway, if not the exact parts. Many of the recent swaps are to the new shift-cam BMW 1250 series, and after decades of successful reliability in the older models, so the new 36k "free" shaft testing and swap is a mystery to me as well.

Second, the 2005-ish final drive redesign resulted in several well-publicized failures (if not many failures, although those whose d/s failed told stories that may have increased the perceived actual failure rate) for a couple of years, which also resulted in several very high profile BMW devotees switching to the GoldWing. Around 2005 - 2007 there were not many choices for a shaft drive motorcycle, so Honda and BMW remained the most popular if shaft was a Rider requirement. HOWEVER! the vast majority of these BMW failures were ultimately traced to improper torque spec on assembly at the factory of the new style "big bearing", as It was called. These were easily identified by the large, unmistakable "hole" in the rear hub, unlike any other previous model of BMW.

I know of this because I rode a chain driven single, the F650GS at the time, so was part of the "BMW culture" and wished for the big 1200, so I followed the debacle closely. In addition to this, I knew several Iron Butt Rally riders (not just the IBA certificate riders), and was on the ldrlist email list for long distance riders. Paul Glaves (living in Big Bend TX), widely known in the BMW community, was a certified BMW Master Mechanic and took it upon himself to dive into this issue and ultimately discovered the assembly at the Berlin factory was improperly torquing a bearing (as I recall) in some units, resulting in the until-then rare failure of the final drive itself.

Interestingly, this was around the same time these new designs also boasted "lifetime" sealed hubs, absent of any fd oil drain plug, as the thought was the gear oil never had to be changed. BMW later added a drain plug, and walked back their public stance about "lifetime" sealed hubs. As an aside, if it were anyone other than the Germans, they would have been embarrassed at their mistake, but in typical BMW fashion they never owned up to any actual "error" on their part. But I digress.

Another to me, interesting note, is the new policy of replacing the drive SHAFT doesn't actually specifically address the SPLINES, where the actual wear is occurring. The U-joint itself, is I suppose, considered part of the drive shaft but I could be mistaken about that. I still have 16k miles before my driveshaft is due to be tested again, although it was tested and passed after the recall to install that little rubber duckbill drain in the bottom of the swingarm.

In the end, I hope this drive shaft business is the only time my bike sees the inside of our local BMW service center, because with the help of BMW forums, I plan to do all the work myself. As mentioned here earlier, I don't think BMW actually addresses the issue of lube for their drive shaft splines, or at least not sufficiently for my needs.

Lastly... add to all of this (in case you didn't know), BMW has now adopted the shameful, low-down policy that they will NOT sell their factory service manuals in paper or any digital form, to the public. In my effort to be transparent and in the interest of full disclosure, many other manufacturers are not selling theirs either, but it makes me - and other beemer owners - very, very unhappy.

So, ...which moly paste should I use on my splines? (I kid.)

EDIT: and, as for the separation and application, yes. Do stir it up before you put it on stuff, as my tub of moly will separate into oil on the surface and thick grease underneath, just like my bottle of gray anti-seize does. @Igofar calls the oil part, the "carrier", and that makes sense to me.
 
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