M77 Replaces Moly 60- Apparently So

I want to see the shaft replacement warranty in writing, because I’ve heard from a few owners already that bmw shops told them that they would only replace them one time, and would charge the customer for labor, and only, if they proved that only bmw certified shops did all the prior maintenance etc.
My nephew purchased his first BMW and had a shaft failure early on, and was traded up to a different bike, and has had all kinds of problems with service threats and scare tactics from the dealer.
 
Now then, let’s really muddy the waters – I have checked the Data sheets for both these products and despite the inclusion of “mol” in each of their names, there is more molybdenum contained in a toffee-yogurt than in 10 metric tonnes of either of these products. Their lubricity is derived entirely from the inclusion of graphite.
Love your metaphor. The bottom line comes down to loading and the total surface area that bears the varying loads as the bike is moving. Heat treating and the type of steel also play a part here. Since the main problems have occurred in the wheel-to-fd splines and not the driveshaft splines (the former requiring the high content moly paste and the latter low content moly grease (ST's only, here), one can infer that the wheel spline loads are higher than the drive shaft spline loads.

I suspect that frequent regular preventative maintenance is as important as usage of the correct lubricant. None of this really answers your ultimate question, however, since both Honda and BMW recommend grease and not moly paste for the shaft splines, that is probably what you should use. With moly or not...that is the question. Whether tis nobler in the mind......:biggrin:
 
I'll get it for you, but first I must get a new e-clip for my chainsaw.

I will state with confidence that the new BMW policy is communicated for dealers and owners, I believe back dated to 2021. Maybe 2020? but mine's 2022 and I'm covered under it.
Stand by, I'll be back...
 
Lastly... add to all of this (in case you didn't know), BMW has now adopted the shameful, low-down policy that they will NOT sell their factory service manuals in paper or any digital form, to the public. In my effort to be transparent and in the interest of full disclosure, many other manufacturers are not selling theirs either, but it makes me - and other beemer owners - very, very unhappy.
Good of example of why the issue of right-to-repair laws are getting more attention, because of decisions like this. These laws mandate that manufacturers must make technical information and parts available to the public for purchase. How effective they will or will not be in achieving this will take time to know I guess.
 
I agree totally with the need to make sure that the Loctite it is well mixed before application. The same is true of any of these products.

I do wonder if the Loctite is of the same quality, or standard, or at least if it is as capable of providing the same level of protection as the Honda Moly 60 was. I have always done my own maintenance and I completely clean, inspect, and re-coat both halves of the splines at every tire change. When ever I am in there the Loctite paste is still there where it is supposed to be and it is not all dried up and hard. It sill looks like it should. Since switching to the Loctite I am now seeing wear in the splines. The wear is no where near at a level to be of any concern yet but it is there and it is visible. I never saw any wear at all previously on my ST1300 or any other shaft drives before it regardless of their mileage. Whether this has anything to do with the switch to using the Loctite or if it is merely coincidental timing and this would have occurred at the same interval even if I was using the Honda Moly 60 I have no way of knowing. I have read a post or two on this forum from people who have reported similar findings since switching to the Loctite. Coincedental or related? Again, who knows. Added to my own experience and it makes me wonder.
 
The pros and cons, availability, and much else has been covered in the preceding 19 pages, so I'll just add my views. First, several here have departed from their beloved ST, to be replaced for sundry reasons by the German bikes which share the shaft drive in common. Well, the principle anyway, if not the exact parts. Many of the recent swaps are to the new shift-cam BMW 1250 series, and after decades of successful reliability in the older models, so the new 36k "free" shaft testing and swap is a mystery to me as well.

Second, the 2005-ish final drive redesign resulted in several well-publicized failures (if not many failures, although those whose d/s failed told stories that may have increased the perceived actual failure rate) for a couple of years, which also resulted in several very high profile BMW devotees switching to the GoldWing. Around 2005 - 2007 there were not many choices for a shaft drive motorcycle, so Honda and BMW remained the most popular if shaft was a Rider requirement. HOWEVER! the vast majority of these BMW failures were ultimately traced to improper torque spec on assembly at the factory of the new style "big bearing", as It was called. These were easily identified by the large, unmistakable "hole" in the rear hub, unlike any other previous model of BMW.

I know of this because I rode a chain driven single, the F650GS at the time, so was part of the "BMW culture" and wished for the big 1200, so I followed the debacle closely. In addition to this, I knew several Iron Butt Rally riders (not just the IBA certificate riders), and was on the ldrlist email list for long distance riders. Paul Glaves (living in Big Bend TX), widely known in the BMW community, was a certified BMW Master Mechanic and took it upon himself to dive into this issue and ultimately discovered the assembly at the Berlin factory was improperly torquing a bearing (as I recall) in some units, resulting in the until-then rare failure of the final drive itself.

Interestingly, this was around the same time these new designs also boasted "lifetime" sealed hubs, absent of any fd oil drain plug, as the thought was the gear oil never had to be changed. BMW later added a drain plug, and walked back their public stance about "lifetime" sealed hubs. As an aside, if it were anyone other than the Germans, they would have been embarrassed at their mistake, but in typical BMW fashion they never owned up to any actual "error" on their part. But I digress.

Another to me, interesting note, is the new policy of replacing the drive SHAFT doesn't actually specifically address the SPLINES, where the actual wear is occurring. The U-joint itself, is I suppose, considered part of the drive shaft but I could be mistaken about that. I still have 16k miles before my driveshaft is due to be tested again, although it was tested and passed after the recall to install that little rubber duckbill drain in the bottom of the swingarm.

In the end, I hope this drive shaft business is the only time my bike sees the inside of our local BMW service center, because with the help of BMW forums, I plan to do all the work myself. As mentioned here earlier, I don't think BMW actually addresses the issue of lube for their drive shaft splines, or at least not sufficiently for my needs.

Lastly... add to all of this (in case you didn't know), BMW has now adopted the shameful, low-down policy that they will NOT sell their factory service manuals in paper or any digital form, to the public. In my effort to be transparent and in the interest of full disclosure, many other manufacturers are not selling theirs either, but it makes me - and other beemer owners - very, very unhappy.

So, ...which moly paste should I use on my splines? (I kid.)

EDIT: and, as for the separation and application, yes. Do stir it up before you put it on stuff, as my tub of moly will separate into oil on the surface and thick grease underneath, just like my bottle of gray anti-seize does. @Igofar calls the oil part, the "carrier", and that makes sense to me.
An interesting read Sadlsor.
I am a little confused by your comments about the spline failures on BMWs and the UJs.
The cardan shaft (as BMW likes to call it)) comprises two UJs, each of which incorporates a female splined socket and so slightly confusing that you should question whether or not the UJs should be considered part of the shaft?
The issue with the lack of any routine maintenance ( as sanctioned by BMW themselves) was that the splines on the cardan shaft would rust and become attached at either or both ends to such an extent that it became impossible to remove the shaft.
The actual failures against which BMW are now offering the lifetime free replacements, were happening as a consequence of the UJs disintegrating and the cardan shaft effectively snapping and separating.
There is some suggestion that the UJ failures were brought about by the splines corroding.
The lower spline joint between the cardan shaft and the final drive box is free to slide back and forth slightly owing to the need for the drive shaft to vary its length slightly on compression and extension of the suspension.
Clearly, if the splines become “welded” together then the shaft becomes a fixed length and this supposedly imparts excessive forces on the UJs, resulting in failure.
Clearly this isn’t the whole story because BMW are replacing all r1200/1250 final drive shafts every 36000 miles, regardless of condition and maintenance history.
It would appear there is a design fault which seriously limits the service life of the shafts such that this step has become necessary. Of course, the other consideration is safety - a catastrophic shaft failure at speed could easily prove fatal.
My bike is now 6-months old and today I removed the boots and dropped the rear hub - both were dry as a bone from the factory without a hint of lube - either the Klubergrease 71-402 spline lube or the Staburags boot waterproofing sealant.
As I said in my earlier post - neither contain Moly, or the previously recommended Optomol Paste TA (despite its name!!!).
I have decided to reassemble with the approved stuff but I do have my reservations about the Klubergrease, having read the data sheet - it was developed for lubricating ball joints with metal to plastic bearing faces and where vibration is present. I don’t understand why BMW didn’t just go with a good quality moly which appears to be universally accepted as the lube of choice for high-load splined drive joints.
PS - which model and year of BMW do you have? I might be able to help you out with a manual. PM me
 
I want to see the shaft replacement warranty in writing, because I’ve heard from a few owners already that bmw shops told them that they would only replace them one time, and would charge the customer for labor, and only, if they proved that only bmw certified shops did all the prior maintenance etc.
This is what appears to have kicked off the lifetime check / replacement cluster****, still looking for the actual BMW replacement bulletin.
And while my screen is small, for giggles look down under the section "Parts Information", where it seems I read... "Cheese Head Screws"? Too funny.
Maybe I misread it.
 

Attachments

  • NHTSA MC-10218351-9999.pdf
    1.6 MB · Views: 15
I believe this is the culprit... bulletin # 33 04 23 released September 1, 2024.

Title is 33 04 23_INFO - K5X Driveshaft Maintenance Schedule Change.
 

Attachments

  • 33 04 23_INFO - K5X Driveshaft Maintenance Schedule Change.pdf
    611.5 KB · Views: 8
@J4o don't mean to confuse people, but i do, because that's my gift in life.

My doubt was whether the actual driveshaft / cardon part number includes the U joint at both ends. Easy enough to look on an online parts fiche, to determine that, but i haven't. I do not expect any final drive issues on my GSA, except for the round rubber piece that goes all the way around the rim.

I don't think BMW covers that under warranty, even though it wears out every 6 thousand miles or so, and had to be replaced.

But Honda doesn't warranty their round rubber thingies either, I know because I've replaced some of those too.

2023 BMW GS1250 Adventure
 
@J4o don't mean to confuse people, but i do, because that's my gift in life.

My doubt was whether the actual driveshaft / cardon part number includes the U joint at both ends. Easy enough to look on an online parts fiche, to determine that, but i haven't. I do not expect any final drive issues on my GSA, except for the round rubber piece that goes all the way around the rim.

I don't think BMW covers that under warranty, even though it wears out every 6 thousand miles or so, and had to be replaced.

But Honda doesn't warranty their round rubber thingies either, I know because I've replaced some of those too.

2023 BMW GS1250 Adventure
The cardan shaft includes both Universal joints and splined fittings - the part cannot be disassembled. I'm not sure why you "do not expect any final drive issues on your GSA" as your bike and mine are both affected and require the Cardan shaft to be replaced every 36000 miles regardless.
Perhaps you're meaning that if it is replaced every 36000 miles then you don't expect to have issues and in which case - fair enough.
BMW are quite specific about this - in the UK, the annual shaft inspections are chargeable to the customer . . . in the US, they are free. I have the document somewhere on my PC and read it only recently.
The 36000 mile replacements are for life, free of charge and not dependent upon proven or unproven service history. That said, I have techs working on my bike and when the time comes , I will just buy one and fit it myself. end of!! :)
 
Perhaps you're meaning that if it is replaced every 36000 miles then you don't expect to have issues and in which case - fair enough.
That's it, you got it.
Add to that, I'll be doing my own tire changes and maintenance, INCLUDING lubing the final drive splines and inspecting my pieces. Watching videos on it. the only real tricky part about disconnecting the u-joint is that it is floppy, so using a string or wire to hold it in position for reassembly is recommended.
 
Just some info on the Honda M77 moly. My repair shop used it this may on my rear splines at tire change. Put 6,000 miles on it this year. So far so good.
 
Just some info on the Honda M77 moly. My repair shop used it this may on my rear splines at tire change. Put 6,000 miles on it this year. So far so good.
Did you clean the splines completely, and check for wear on the splines? Or are you just saying that the paste still appears to be on the splines?
You may want to inspect them a little closer. I have found many damaged splines since Honda started using this product.
 
It's hard to believe the Honda M77 Moly paste could be that bad!!, especially when none of the BMW-approved lubes even contain moly. That said, I think we established the application was subtly different. On the Beemers, the lube is required at either end of the splined final drive shaft - where it fits to the male gearbox output and the mail input shaft to the bevel box - everything else is lube by the hypoid oil in the final drive box. Looking at one or two ST videos, it seems you guys have a large ring-shaped gear between the wheel and the hub and this is perhaps the site of contention?
 
It's hard to believe the Honda M77 Moly paste could be that bad!!, especially when none of the BMW-approved lubes even contain moly. That said, I think we established the application was subtly different. On the Beemers, the lube is required at either end of the splined final drive shaft - where it fits to the male gearbox output and the mail input shaft to the bevel box - everything else is lube by the hypoid oil in the final drive box. Looking at one or two ST videos, it seems you guys have a large ring-shaped gear between the wheel and the hub and this is perhaps the site of contention?
You’re probably right, it can’t be that bad if Honda recommends it….
 

Attachments

  • IMG_3781.jpeg
    IMG_3781.jpeg
    153 KB · Views: 24
  • IMG_3780.jpeg
    IMG_3780.jpeg
    160.6 KB · Views: 24
  • IMG_3779.jpeg
    IMG_3779.jpeg
    104.1 KB · Views: 25
I want to see the shaft replacement warranty in writing, because I’ve heard from a few owners already that bmw shops told them that they would only replace them one time, and would charge the customer for labor, and only, if they proved that only bmw certified shops did all the prior maintenance etc.
My nephew purchased his first BMW and had a shaft failure early on, and was traded up to a different bike, and has had all kinds of problems with service threats and scare tactics from the dealer.
Here is the letter I got from BMW regarding the shaft replacement. it IS a lifetime replacement every 60k kms or 37k miles of shaft mileage not motorcycle.1000002181 (1).jpg
 
You’re probably right, it can’t be that bad if Honda recommends it….
I wasn't convinced by the first two pictures as I wasn't sure what I was looking for but no.3 . . . ouch!
It sounds like I'm right to be cautious about Motorrad's recommendation of Klubergrease LFT 71-402 with no moly and developed by Kluber for lubing sealed for life ball-joints.
At this moment in time, I think I'm about to develop a monogamous relationship with a 500gm tin of LB8012.
 
Back
Top Bottom