Rear wheel and tire removal time

[SMSW]

What Larry says rings true to me (about the reason service techs use grease).

I cannot speak for mechanics in general because I've not spent a lot of time in their shops, and the only one I trust my cars to would probably get the Larry Stamp of Approval. However, I've seen enough bad electrical work to figure out that the guy obviously knew what he was doing but ran out of a particular fitting or box and then simply used what he had in his truck. "It doesn't exist" or "they don't make that" means "I'm lazy and don't have that in my truck.

 

[AV8R]

... they had only a few hundred miles on them before I found this damage!
The dealership used the "new and improved" moly 77 paste as in your picture.
Another respectable forum member was on the road and was forced to replace her rear tire at a Honda Dealership, she rode straight to my garage afterward (approximately 400 miles), you guessed it, no Moly, plain grease, and sharp edges and damage just starting at that low of mileage.

...these examples communicates damage in under 500 miles using either M77 or axel grease.

So, do you want to risk your splines, or do you want to due some preventative service work now and not worry about it?
Your call. Think of it this way, your shop, has mechanics that admit that they don't follow the correct procedures in the service manual and use stuff based on their personal opinion...
Would you let your Corvette mechanic treat your cage like that

Oh sure, drag my beloved C-family into this...
Ive fired physicians for less. :|

Get your :butt1: on your bike, contact me on the white courtesy :call: and lets get you down here so I can teach you what you need to know to keep your bike running in tip top shape.
You won't feel its wasted time after the end of the day, and on your ride home.

1. Typical mech, all heart no tact. LOL. Must be the fumes (yes ive seen your sense of humor before, its ok, its incurable.)

2. In what universe does going to Central Ca from Southern Ca correspond to “down here”. J/K

3. By definition of the two aforementioned examples, driving 8 hours and ~500 miles up there, constitutes inflicting damage to said splines, M77 not withstanding. The cure would be damaging, regardless of the time/risk/cost to make the gracious appointment dear sir. I regretfully and respectfully decline.

4. I believe the only course is to bring the patient back upon my operationing table once the proper paste is acquired. Cost and risk analysis is minimal. At least now its not my first rodeo.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

So technically speaking, to the customer (me) they will recommend M77 which is a lubricant which has a lower moly content than the now discontinued M60.

Actually the M77 is listed as having a higher MSo2 content than the Moly 60 was. M77 is rated at 60-70% MSo2.

 

[AV8R]

Actually the M77 is listed as having a higher MSo2 content than the Moly 60 was. M77 is rated at 60-70% MSo2.

Please provide reference

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Please provide reference

Here you go.
If you have the newest M77 that Honda sells (P/N 08798-9010CH) it is PolySi PST-77 and is made for Honda by PolySi.
See the attached SDS.

 

[AV8R]

Nicely done...


I found this:

Dow Corning's selection guide catalog has the following information on M77:

Molykote® M-77 Part Assembly Paste
Primary Use – Part assembly; running in; as a press-fitting lubricant where high temperature is a factor.
Special Characteristics – Wider and higher operating temperature range than organic oil based pastes; extreme loads; low speeds.
Physical Form – Black, soap thickened, silicone fluid based paste containing more than 60% MoS2.
Applications – Lubricating during running-in of gears, splines, journal bearings, cams; reducing torque in tightening threads and bolts; lubricating bearing shafts, O-rings, packings and seals, brake assemblies; press-fitting.
Temperature Range – Solids from -50 to 750°F (-45 to 399°C); base oil from -40 to 450°F (-40 to 232°C).
Limitations – Not recommended for use in pressure lines.

the referenced site doesn’t call out M77, but this product seems likely:
http://www.molykoteproduct.com/pdf/en/Molykote_BR-2_Plus_High_Performance_Grease.pdf


Still, we have on one hand a master mechanics rubber meets the road (quite literally) experience, and on the other the claims by these Moly paste/grease specs. This is a most curious conundrum.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Re: The product that you linked to above. It is by no means a hard and fast rule but often with regards to Moly lubricants when it is referred to as a grease it has a lesser MSo2 content than products which are referred to as a paste. Be sure to check the specs. if this is what you are considering using.

 

[AV8R]

No no no...

When i I do the redo on this, just so Larry doesn’t ride down to my neck of the woods, I will use the M60 replacement he recommended. He doesn’t seem to be the kind that gives in easily. I envision Larry as the Sarge Mech in the TV series Ba Ba Blacksheep, opining about “snotty nosed college kids messing with his birds”.

 

[SMSW]

Still, we have on one hand a master mechanics rubber meets the road (quite literally) experience, and on the other the claims by these Moly paste/grease specs. This is a most curious conundrum.

Larry's comments regarding damaged splines go back a ways, and cannot possibly include use of a new formulation of M77 now known as PST-77. It's been my understanding that this whole controversy started because the replacement for M60 did not have a moly concentration of > 40%. WTH didn't Honda come out with a Service Bulletin regarding the original change from 60 to 77? We could have saved all this time debating Moly pastes vs Moly greases and assembly lubes and could have worked on discussing how to collect and package neutrinos for sale on ebay.

Regarding AV8R's comments in #59, were a mechanic to tell me he thought a lubricant broke down into abrasive particles I would run for the exit and never go near him again. This kind of statement reveals a basic misunderstanding of what lubrication is all about, and I would wonder about what other 'shortcuts' he might take.

 

[AV8R]

Larry's comments regarding damaged splines go back a ways, and cannot possibly include use of a new formulation of M77 now known as PST-77. It's been my understanding that this whole controversy started because the replacement for M60 did not have a moly concentration of > 40%. WTH didn't Honda come out with a Service Bulletin regarding the original change from 60 to 77? We could have saved all this time debating Moly pastes vs Moly greases and assembly lubes and could have worked on discussing how to collect and package neutrinos for sale on ebay.

Ok so what’s the call on the M77 I purchased recently at Honda and put into the splines of my 05 (as pictured earlier by me), it is or is not this PST-77 formulation?

Regarding AV8R's comments in #59, were a mechanic to tell me he thought a lubricant broke down into abrasive particles I would run for the exit and never go near him again. This kind of statement reveals a basic misunderstanding of what lubrication is all about, and I would wonder about what other 'shortcuts' he might take.

Exactly. Which is why I asked fact or fake news. There’s a lot of well meaning folk out there that convert opinions into gospel after they spin the tale long enough, service folk included in this case.

 

[Igofar]

The stuff you posted in your picture was the stuff Honda first started using when the M60 went the way of the T-Rex. This is the same stuff that I've found dried up in little balls in the spline area, leaving the splines unprotected and damaged (you should really check out the pictures of said damage John Heath was kind enough to post). Someone posted a service memo indicating that it is to be used where Moly Grease is called for (not moly paste) thus the debate.
Its just my OPINION, but I would NOT use the product you have on splines regardless of what anyone says.
This is the same M-77 that the local dealerships started using when all the spline damage started showing up one after another etc.
The Honda Service manual(s) for Their Element and CRV indicates that this be used on the back of brake pads.
Interestingly enough, when I went into a Car dealership and asked for a tube of the M-77 ASSEMBLY PASTE #08798-9010 (since the bottle states that its formulated for Honda and Acura vehicles) He asked what I was planning on using it for, and before I could answer, he quickly said, this is only to be used on brake pad applications and assembly of parts, and not for use in motorcycles, etc.
I asked him about the use on splines, and he said "we are not allowed to discuss this product further with customers", the stuff you want is the Moly 60 PASTE that has been PULLED off the shelves nation wide...I asked him WHY it was PULLED off the shelves, and he said he could not discuss that further.
I don't know about you, but that would raise a flag for me.
You pay your dollar, you take your chance, use what you want.
And don't worry about me riding down to you to work on your bike, as your comment “snotty nosed college kids messing with his birds”. would be correct.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

WTH didn't Honda come out with a Service Bulletin regarding the original change from 60 to 77?

They did- kind of. They released a document in July 2015 notifying of the change. See the attached.

Ok so what’s the call on the M77 I purchased recently at Honda and put into the splines of my 05 (as pictured earlier by me), it is or is not this PST-77 formulation?

The one you picture (red & white tube with printed writing) is either old stock and is the previous version of Honda M77 or Honda sells two different products in Canada and the US. Honda Canada used to sell this very same tube of M77 but no longer does. In Canada the current and latest version of M77 is an all white tube with a stick on label that is the PST-77 from PolySi Technologies. See the picture in the attached.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Ok so what's the call on the M77 I purchased recently at Honda and put into the splines of my 05 (as pictured earlier by me), it is or is not this PST-77 formulation?

Curious to know what the Honda part number of the red & white tube that you bought is. Is it Honda P/N P/N 08798-9010? Or is it P/N 08798-9010CH (CH suffix)? Or is it something else? Is it possible that the P/N 08798-9010 is the previous Honda M77 (red & white tube) and the newer M77 (white tube with label) is P/N 08798-9010CH (CH suffix). Just curious.

 

[drtyrrel]

Doesn't mean he's a bad or lazy mechanic. Probably just repeating something that he was told by somebody else who was wrong. Kinda like when I here a brand new aspiring rider tell me they don't use the front brake because their father told them that they will flip the bike over end to end. Or using the friction zone will burn your clutch out in less than a week.

 

[drtyrrel]

How long ago did Honda stopped making M60 paste and starting selling M77 as a replacement? Seams like if it will wear out the splines in less than a thousand miles there would be a lot of discussions about Honda final drives failing? This would take a lot of pressure off BMW for once. I probably would just leave it as is until the next tire change or maybe even until the tube was empty

 

[SMSW]

They did- kind of. They released a document in July 2015 notifying of the change. See the attached.

This document is amusing - and the source of the confusion. They say it is the replacement for M 60, yet it is to be used wherever the SM calls for moly disulfide grease. My SM has two silhouettes of a grease gun overlaid with M (for moly grease) or with MP (for moly paste). Both grease and paste are defined as having > 3% moly or >40% moly respectively.

 

[AV8R]

I get the obsfucation around the M77 (now PST-77) due to the implications and accountability it might indemnify, but the move from a successful M60 to M77 seems murky and quirky. There must have been vendor/ suppliers issues or a very poor maintenance philosophy shift at some juncture. Regardless, thanks too a community like this, the owners can take charge admist the chaos.

Im gunna ride the bike until i get the right stuff, hopefully I’ll swap it out in a week or two. My time to do this kind of work is limited.

oh and Larry sent me his picture, thought id unmask him for ya all

 

[AV8R]

Curious to know what the Honda part number of the red & white tube that you bought is. Is it Honda P/N P/N 08798-9010? Or is it P/N 08798-9010CH (CH suffix)? Or is it something else? Is it possible that the P/N 08798-9010 is the previous Honda M77 (red & white tube) and the newer M77 (white tube with label) is P/N 08798-9010CH (CH suffix). Just curious.

No “CH” in the part number as you can see. Its also labeled as “M77 Assembly Paste”.

Earlier you said:
“If you have the newest M77 that Honda sells (P/N 08798-9010CH) it is PolySi PST-77 and is made for Honda by PolySi.”

Which would mean the M77 I have is not the PST-77 version

 

[dduelin]

The latest Honda part number omits the CH and that is what is coming from vendors now. Red and white tube, contains moly paste. By appearances it's similar in consistency and color to the old Moly 60 paste.

 

[AV8R]

The non-CH “paste” i got at Honda recently (pictured above) cant be the PST-77 high moly content paste. This one I used had the consistency of grease and not a paste. Like can a true paste come from a squeeze tube?

The red/white tube I had, the oil separated from the “paste”, which i then remixed and then applied.