Rear wheel and tire removal time

In my opinion Honda used really cheap quality bolts and nuts on these muffler clamps. I bought my bike new and the bolts were not seized or badly rusted the first time I removed them so they came off with no issue. Even so when I re-torqued these clamps the threads of the bolts stripped. I drilled right through and removed the threads of the captured nuts on the clamps. I bought better quality bolts of the same size as the originals and installed them using new higher quality nuts and lock washers on the top. The original captured nut is in effect a spacer now. I use high temp anti-seize whenever I reassemble these. This allowed me to continue to use the original Honda muffler clamps without having to buy new.
 
The crime scene, new bolts, PB, and moly M77

EB8C899A-E98E-4BA2-940F-183D4DE31206.jpg

Cleaning splines. They were dirty and the moly disintegrated
9BD52CCA-31E5-4CB7-B719-1DDA739CDFDA.jpg 3CDD2CC2-959B-4129-ACE6-4BF12C90665D.jpg

Soaking the sheared bolt and clamp
48EF6F65-D506-41F0-86CF-71F7A4DF1C8D.jpg

And a little persuasion
84A8D851-DD03-45CF-8A8C-7BD1CAFC79D0.jpg 5988C25D-1FFA-4050-966D-C6F7C5C98754.jpg
And it’s free
 
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My dented, virtually empty, old can of NeverSeeze my dad handed down to me says it withstands 2500*F. There is a "high temp" version too??
 
After much careful effort, the surgery was a total success and the patient is on his two feet.

It was so hot, and no available operation rooms, so it was a MASH setup
1494289E-D97F-4320-93AA-4B2E6FEEA5F2.jpg

The secret sauce was bending the front (of rear brake) pad bracket tabs so they snap into the caliper casing; then they stay in place.
BA87CF12-9697-434D-8A8A-E24B7A3273BC.jpg

Time to close up the patient
5B0B5795-015E-4D2D-A016-0F94FBF6678F.jpg

so Larry was on point about the splines and molly
It looked like my bikes was never replaced.

Think ill just pay next time, but now i know intimately the brakes, exhaust, wheel, drive, and more places to clean up my bike
 
Good job! Now all you have to do is find the correct Moly 60 type paste, instead of the Moly Grease they sold you in that tube :rofl1:
But that would be a whole other post...
 
AV8R said:
PB Blaster...
OK, lesson learned and added to my bag-o-tricks. Thought applying heat was the “proper†way to loosen stuck metal.

Here's a piece of kit sized for the ST1300: Mikalor Stainless Exhaust Clamp with Zinc Bolt, Clamp Size: 43-47mm.

(wonder if these can be had locally)
FB1C5CF9-FECB-4B1C-BC32-BBF11127B03A.jpeg
Click to expand...

Heat is your best friend, see if you can pick up a small propane bottle for soldering copper piping.

Also, I picked up a bunch of those Mikalor T bolt clamps from a local industrial hydraulic hose supplier. May have a few left as I've given many away to people on here. See if you have a supplier that makes up hoses for construction equipment close by. They should carry a wide assortment of clamps.
Stainless steel clamps are your friend when you install them on your bike on the dirty side. I also put never seize on the threads and in the bore where you stick the muffler back into the collector box.
 
Igofar said:
Good job! Now all you have to do is find the correct Moly 60 type paste, instead of the Moly Grease they sold you in that tube :rofl1:
But that would be a whole other post...
Click to expand...

I hate you. ;)

well its better than the dirt that was in there

btw, wasnt Honda M60 discontinued?
 
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AV8R said:
I hate you. ;)

well its better than the dirt that was in there

btw, wasnt Honda M60 discontinued?
Click to expand...

To save you hours and hours of reading the Moly Paste 60 drama threads, this may help...
Pick up some LOCTITE LB8012 (formerly known as Loctite moly paste 51048.
This seems to have the closest amount of Moly solids on the market that the Honda 60 claimed to have.
The stuff in the tube you have is Moly grease for the back of brake pads in your car.
 
Lets see if Im getting this...

A. Honda, under their packaging, is both recommending and selling M77 (grease) in place of its discontinued M60 (paste) for its motorcycle application
B. The lower density of Moly (paste vs grease), may have to do with the expectation to replace-service it more frequently (agree or not with this philosophy).
C. This site says the same thing about M60 vs M77
https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?78215-ATTENTION!!!-All-K-bikes-HONDA-MOLY-60-DISCONTINUED
D. Here is the replacement:
https://www.amazon.com/8-oz-Lubricant-Extreme-442-51048-Category/dp/B001HWBSJW

Regardless, the overarching lesson here, is no one cares for your bike like you should. So “caveat emptor” applies to not only buying, but maintenance as well.
 
AV8R said:
Lets see if Im getting this...

A. Honda, under their packaging, is both recommending and selling M77 (grease) in place of its discontinued M60 (paste) for its motorcycle application
B. The lower density of Moly (paste vs grease), may have to do with the expectation to replace-service it more frequently (agree or not with this philosophy).
C. This site says the same thing about M60 vs M77
https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?78215-ATTENTION!!!-All-K-bikes-HONDA-MOLY-60-DISCONTINUED
D. Here is the replacement:
https://www.amazon.com/8-oz-Lubricant-Extreme-442-51048-Category/dp/B001HWBSJW

Regardless, the overarching lesson here, is no one cares for your bike like you should. So “caveat emptor†applies to not only buying, but maintenance as well.
Click to expand...

Read this, post #22.

The Honda Service Manual for most of our bikes (be interesting to see what they say in one of the manuals for a model that came out after M60 was discontinued) said to use a "molybdenum disulfide paste with more than 40% moly, NLGI #2 or equivalent ". It gave examples such as Molykote G-n Paste (Dow), Honda Moly 60 (USA only) and Rocol. Then Honda discontinued the M-60 and without issuing an official service bulletin (I'm guessing at this, since it has not been mentioned in other discussions) changed their computers to show the M77 as a replacement. The new part number for M77 comes up when your buddy at the Honda parts counter punches in the number for the M60. However, the new M77 does not meet that earlier requirement of 40% or greater moly. This contradiction which has never been resolved by Mother Honda has divided the faithful here into several camps - the always, sometimes, and never crowds and confused the rest of us. Bottom line, pick your poison and apply 3 grams of it to the splines.

Density is the wrong word. I think you mean moly content in paste vs grease. And there is no official replacement beyond Hondas M77. Members here have taken Honda's specs from the Service Manual and found alternatives that fit the description. And there are at least two or three.

To add to the confusion, the words 'grease' and 'paste' seem to be somewhat interchangeable although the former seems to require a soap base to which oils, etc. are added and presumably (my presuming, your definition might be different) the latter may be made with any kind of base (i.e. swamp muck plus moly might meet the definition of a 'paste').

If you are really bored, you can read some more here.
 
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Kroil has been around for ages. Some guys swear by it. Some swear by PB Blaster. I've even seen someone recommend Coke (lol, but not Pepsi) as a penetrating oil/fluid. As Larry said earlier, 50-50 Acetone-Auto Trans Fluid is a great home made and cheap penetrating oil.
 
Interesting:

Any grease that contains more than 50% solids (such as MoS2, molybdenum disulfide) is a paste rather than a grease

The reason moly is recommended is because the splines really do not move laterally and eventually, all the wet components of any liquid lube will get squeezed out. The splines never travel to pick up new wet lube so they are effectively unlubricated. MoS2 is a solid, grinds itself into the surface pores of the steel and continues to lubricate after the splines are completely dry. And because MoS2 is a solid, it cannot be vaporized as an oil or grease will be so to 'get rid of it' would take temperatures above what the steel parts themselves can stand. So yes, the stuff stands up to high temps. much better than any wet lube.
 
AV8R said:
Lets see if Im getting this...

A. Honda, under their packaging, is both recommending and selling M77 (grease) in place of its discontinued M60 (paste) for its motorcycle application
B. The lower density of Moly (paste vs grease), may have to do with the expectation to replace-service it more frequently (agree or not with this philosophy).
C. This site says the same thing about M60 vs M77
https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?78215-ATTENTION!!!-All-K-bikes-HONDA-MOLY-60-DISCONTINUED
D. Here is the replacement:
https://www.amazon.com/8-oz-Lubricant-Extreme-442-51048-Category/dp/B001HWBSJW

Regardless, the overarching lesson here, is no one cares for your bike like you should. So “caveat emptor” applies to not only buying, but maintenance as well.
Click to expand...

Not only do I respect and appreciate what you do while riding your bike, I am starting to like your replies.....only starting to mind you...you still have my FTO training course to pass :rofl1:

Thanks for attaching the links, your much more organized than some of us.
 
M77 application notes:
http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/files/tsb/a03-033.pdf

its moly density (mass/volume), percentage or “content” seems to be hard to pin down, apart from its being a composite of oils, thickeners and moly solids. So as said before, what does Honda tech manuals call out in this application, post-M60 (which seems to have been 65%).

So now I have to decide to remove M77 now, or gamble it will lubricant long enough for the next tire or brake job, which ever comes first. Laziness says the latter.

Tangentially:
For non moving parts, like spines, some advocates ”dry” sprays due to their ease of application. But does it leave a 65% or better moly solid level of protection? (They tend to hide the moly content as a trade secret).

One site discussing sprays stated:
“If you understand how moly is supposed to work, very little is required. The dry spray is not a bad idea, but if you brush on paste (I use the gf's toothbrush), you need very little. My first 3 oz tube lasted me for like a lifetime (6-7 years).”

https://www.amazon.com/CRC-03084-Net-Weight-Lubricant/dp/B0013J62P4

this topic does seem to be a deep well, worthy of its own category/thread on its own rights apparently
 
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Ok, i decided to call and discuss with the Honda Service Center what they recommend for these drive splines (wheel facing). What I heard only bolsters IgoFar/Larrys position on such places....

So technically speaking, to the customer (me) they will recommend M77 which is a lubricant which has a lower moly content than the now discontinued M60. What the Honda tech reps and mechanics use is high temp axel grease (Warren? IIRC).

Why? Apparently they believe from experience that as the paste brakes down or if used too liberally, the moly particles (which are harder than the metal) act as an abrasive and cause the metal ware down. This was related to the discontinuation decision.

Is this fact or fake news?

Locally the mechanics use axel grease when tire changes are done. They dont use M77
 
AV8R said:
Ok, i decided to call and discuss with the Honda Service Center what they recommend for these drive splines (wheel facing). What I heard only bolsters IgoFar/Larrys position on such places....

So technically speaking, to the customer (me) they will recommend M77 which is a lubricant which has a lower moly content than the now discontinued M60. What the Honda tech reps and mechanics use is high temp axel grease (Warren? IIRC).

Why? Apparently they believe from experience that as the paste brakes down or if used too liberally, the moly particles (which are harder than the metal) act as an abrasive and cause the metal ware down. This was related to the discontinuation decision.

Is this fact or fake news?

Locally the mechanics use axel grease when tire changes are done. They dont use M77
Click to expand...

Don't know if I would call if fact or fake news, or plain stupid is as stupid does :nuts1:
I have probably seen more driveshaft splines in a month, than they do in 6 months, and yes, the shops almost always use whatever grease they have handy.
Is it because they think its better? Probably not, its probably just because its what they have in reach, and they really don't care about anything other than getting the job done quickly, after all, the customer won't know :rolleyes: and if the bike comes back with damage, its just more service work for them, and profit for the dealership.
If you find John Heaths posts on the Moly/Spline issues, he was kind enough to post some of my pictures on the forum for all to see.
The splines in these photos were NEW and replaced by the dealer, before the bike was sold, they had only a few hundred miles on them before I found this damage!
The dealership used the "new and improved" moly 77 paste as in your picture.
Another respectable forum member was on the road and was forced to replace her rear tire at a Honda Dealership, she rode straight to my garage afterward (approximately 400 miles), you guessed it, no Moly, plain grease, and sharp edges and damage just starting at that low of mileage.
So, do you want to risk your splines, or do you want to due some preventative service work now and not worry about it?
Your call.
Think of it this way, your shop, has mechanics that admit that they don't follow the correct procedures in the service manual and use stuff based on their personal opinion...
Would you let your Corvette mechanic treat your cage like that :think1:
Get your :butt1: on your bike, contact me on the white courtesy :call: and lets get you down here so I can teach you what you need to know to keep your bike running in tip top shape.
You won't feel its wasted time after the end of the day, and on your ride home.
 
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