Visibility, Are You Being Seen?

[motornut]

First this is a placemark, I haven't figured out how to formally do this test. Second, someone here may already know about ones performed, please post.

The thoughts running around in my head have to do with a video camera situated on a busy street corner at car driver eye height. Rider drives by in traffic wearing a "colored" jacket, helmet, comes back around and passes camera again wearing a different color, repeat. Which colors allow the cars to see the rider sooner? Would the color of bike matter, seat height, just helmet, any difference in grey or black? These are just some random thoughts. If i had someone to run the camera I probably would have a few colors checked off. What say ye ( or is it see ye)?

I totally think this is a really good idea with a placement at various locations in other conditions.
The other studies mentioned in here are definitely interesting and worth reading and using. The most dangerous places are pointed out on many sites as well as included in riding schools. For newer riders this training is vital now days with increased traffic.
People see what they expect to see, frequently overlooking what is different. Visibility is always a better option to draw attention to your existence in their vision space.

I have always felt that if you can hit me, I made a mistake. Of course that does not cover many if not most conditions. The other thing I recommend is you ride or you don't. The way you react and the speed that you move becomes second nature ( in my opinion ) Think about hitting brake pedal or turning the steering wheel in your car when confronted by emergencies.
Did you really think about the brakes or did you just move first?
The other thing of utmost importance is knowing where your head lies when you throw your leg over the saddle, sometimes even the seasoned rider is just not in the game on that day.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

The way you react and the speed that you move becomes second nature ( in my opinion ) Think about hitting brake pedal or turning the steering wheel in your car when confronted by emergencies.

True.
In a true emergency maneuver, when things happen in milliseconds, people react. We do not think, analyze, decide, and respond. There just isn't time enough. Reactions are a result of repetition. Many people like to think that they will be better in an emergency than they actually will be. Under stress in an emergency people do what they always do- memory muscle. This is why in many high stress rapid response jobs people train on the same techniques over, and over, and over- to develop the correct memory muscle response. If we want to be proficient at emergency stopping and hazard avoidance, we need to practice emergency stopping and hazard avoidance.

 

[ST1100Y]

I think visibility options will be similar to oil and moly paste threads. Everyone has a strongly held opinion and feels they are right.

Or firST hand experience...

... turned out that even this is pretty much invisible, even while wearing a matching "overcoat" and a white helmet to it:



hence my conclusion: high viz is a myth...

 

[st11ray]

True.
In a true emergency maneuver, when things happen in milliseconds, people react. We do not think, analyze, decide, and respond. There just isn't time enough. Reactions are a result of repetition. Many people like to think that they will be better in an emergency than they actually will be. Under stress in an emergency people do what they always do- memory muscle. This is why in many high stress rapid response jobs people train on the same techniques over, and over, and over- to develop the correct memory muscle response. If we want to be proficient at emergency stopping and hazard avoidance, we need to practice emergency stopping and hazard avoidance.

But, you can't truly practice emergency stopping because in your mind you know that it's just practice and not a real emergency. Plus, you are going to be going through lots of tires and brake pads. You will also be dropping your bike doing "real" emergency practice. Just look at how often Motor Officers drop their bikes during training. I don't believe most folks want to practice to the extreme like that. JMO

 

[ReSTored]

But, you can't truly practice emergency stopping because in your mind you know that it's just practice and not a real emergency.

Another reason is that no one really wants to lock up a front wheel on a non abs bike and dump it when in practice mode.

On my standard ST I was ok up to about 70 - 80 kph practicing aggressive panic stops, the front wheel chirped on occasion. Faster than that I was more tentative.

When braking to a stop, vs. driving / riding around something, is the right answer I think many people under brake for a range of reasons. I think muscle memory has a lot to do with it as a full out panic stop rarely occurs, most people don't practice it and freeze to some extent in an emergency situation where things happen very fast.

 

[Erdoc48]

I think one of the issues when emergency braking, specifically with the back wheel, is to avoid the tendency to release the pressure on the back brake. Otherwise, that bike is going to fishtail all over the place (if locked up and in a slide from the back tire). If you get it locked up in the back, we all need to develop the instinct of just holding your foot on the brake until the bike comes to a stop. Otherwise once it starts rolling again, it’s going to pitch you off the bike. Over time, I learned to hold the front brake with just enough pressure to get at that howling moment of the front tire without it locking up. I have been doing that since I started riding. I also have to constantly remind myself about safe following distance because sometimes I have been caught off guard and have to stop in a hurry and that makes me realize that I am following too close.

 

[the Ferret]

A Danish Study about the effectiveness of high-visibility (hi-vis) clothing found that the number of accidents per person per month was 47% lower among bicycle riders who were wearing a hi-vis jacket, and there were 55% fewer accidents between cyclists and motorized vehicles.

 

[ST1100Y]

A Danish Study about the effectiveness of high-visibility (hi-vis) clothing found that the number of accidents per person per month was 47% lower among bicycle riders who were wearing a hi-vis jacket, and there were 55% fewer accidents between cyclists and motorized vehicles.

And I'd say: never trust a statistic you're not the one having paid for/manipulated yourself...
Could it be as simple as that the push-bikers who wear high viz are within the minority of those who actually care about traffic regs at least to some degree, hence are less danger to themself??
Just curious mind thinking out loud there...

 

[the Ferret]

I was in the highway Traffic Safety Biz for 24 1/2 years before retiring. Hi Viz saved a lot of workers lives. It's why it's mandatory now for Highway workers, and Firemen and Leo's working traffic.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

But, you can't truly practice emergency stopping because in your mind you know that it's just practice and not a real emergency. Plus, you are going to be going through lots of tires and brake pads. You will also be dropping your bike doing "real" emergency practice. Just look at how often Motor Officers drop their bikes during training. I don't believe most folks want to practice to the extreme like that. JMO

We can not reproduce a real emergency, and practice sessions on the road or in a parking lot will never be exactly the same as a real emergency situation. We can all understand and appreciate that fact as we do not have the benefit of being in the safe environment of a simulator and can not act as such. The idea is not to go out and burn through your tires and brakes. It is to practice an emergency stop on a regular basis to remain familiar with the process and the feeling of a panic stop and what needs to be done to execute one so that we are familiar with what to expect and how the motorcycle will react if ever an emergency panic stop is required.

I guess referring to it as practicing good habits as often as possible to try and eliminate performing the bad ones in an emergency might be a better descriptor.
Beyond practicing panic stops, there is also much that can be practiced to develop memory muscle that will put as much in one's favour as possible that does not cost anything but effort. An example is the braking procedure itself. Many people only use the front brake, or the back brake, during routine stopping for whatever reasons they have to justify that action. The problem is that what they do routinely becomes their normal, and in an emergency stopping situation is most likely what they will do then also. Using both the front and the rear brake all the time during every stop trains your brain to do that, every time. When you are faced with having to do a panic stop in an emergency you will instinctively grab both brakes without thinking about it as it has become reactionary and affords you the use of maximum available braking power. Same idea with covering your brake lever and pedal. If you routinely do this, you will also be doing it when an emergency arises improving your reaction time. Same thing with looking both left and right before entering an intersection even though your light has turned green and you have the right of way. If you make an effort to do this as much as possible, eventually you become much more likely to do it every time, and that one simple little act might save your life one day. It did for me.

Re: Hi-viz.
For whatever reason I have always found that I notice white helmets the most, even more so than the hi-viz ones. If most of the riders on the road wore white helmets would that still be the case? I don't know. I find that in an environment where everyone is wearing hi-viz clothing it seems to loose its impact, it all looks the same.

 

[the Ferret]

Which guy do you see first?

 

[dduelin]

But, you can't truly practice emergency stopping because in your mind you know that it's just practice and not a real emergency. Plus, you are going to be going through lots of tires and brake pads. You will also be dropping your bike doing "real" emergency practice. Just look at how often Motor Officers drop their bikes during training. I don't believe most folks want to practice to the extreme like that. JMO

Yeh but all the guys that do NO PRACTICE at all.

I disagree you can't practice threshold braking at the edge of lock up. Doing a 1-2 squeeeeeeze from 40 mph and making the tires consistently howl and leave a front tire darky is a real world drill. Teaches not stabbing the brake on and teaches your right hand to let up when the tire sound changes. Teaches what to do with the right foot and when. Muscle memory kicks in when you need it and the feel and sound of the bike pressing into the pavement isn't a strange and frightening sensation. Never done it? Good luck when you need to. Hitting the tires and brakes at the end of a ride once a month are worth the skill if it saves a crash.

I did a police taught refresher course last weekend and out of 24 regular guys like me about 50% couldn't bring themselves to do the simple emergency (threshold) braking drill. Then the threshold braking to off-brakes and swerve to evade drill was even more difficult for them. You could tell who practices simple parking lot drills.

 

[ST Gui]

You can be riding an open pipe bright hot pink bike, standing on the seat stark naked, ablaze from head to toe, shouting the lyrics to 'Yellow Rose of Texas' off-key thru a loudspeaker and some a$$*&)e will not see you.

Nothing is perfect. It happens. This shouldn't surprise anyone be they driver or rider.

Another member stated something about people crashing into fire trucks even though they were equipped with emergency lighting. (Nothing about Teslas) It seemed like he assumed people adding lights to civilian bike assumed they were now invincible.

Nothing is perfect - even defensive driving or riding. In the few years I've been here I've never seen one post where I could accurately infer that the author assumed situational awareness wasn't needed for any reason and in particular increasing conspicuity.

All you can do is all you can do. On occasions that may not be enough. This isn't news to anybody. Insurance and a will provide some mitigation should bad things happen.

 

[ST Gui]

I'm going to have to start riding like this guy!

Anyone out to do him harm would just knock him down and steal is firearm. That thing may as well be made by Hasbro for all the defensive good it would do him.

We now return to the saner part of our broadcast...

 

[ST1100Y]

I was in the highway Traffic Safety Biz for 24 1/2 years before retiring. Hi Viz saved a lot of workers lives. It's why it's mandatory now for Highway workers, and Firemen and Leo's working traffic.

Doesn't do anything when people look right through you then at you...
As @Uncle Phil wrote will they drive right into a running fire truck, despite full billboard lit and surround sound blaring...
Folks drive (and walk) right into trams over here, 10ft tall, 66ft long, in bright white/red camo paint... bam! Sorry didn't see you...
Had BD folks first glaring right at me, just to pull out 15ft in front of me... and then shush me over my blaring horns at their driver's door "...can't you see I'm on the phone?!!"
So I'd rather relate on my own instincts and defensive (or advancing) riding style then put my hopes on "being seen"...

Besides that high-viz got heavily misused over here; every dog owner, jogger, push-biker, scoot-knight, GS-rider, etc... wore them... an omnipresent flood of nuke-yellow with silver stripes...
Maybe the reason Brussels now banned any reflective additions on vehicles...

 

[dduelin]

Doesn't do anything when people look right through you then at you...
As @Uncle Phil wrote will they drive right into a running fire truck, despite full billboard lit and surround sound blaring...
Folks drive (and walk) right into trams over here, 10ft tall, 66ft long, in bright white/red camo paint... bam! Sorry didn't see you...
Had BD folks first glaring right at me, just to pull out 15ft in front of me... and then shush me over my blaring horns at their driver's door "...can't you see I'm on the phone?!!"
So I'd rather relate on my own instincts and defensive (or advancing) riding style then put my hopes on "being seen"...

Besides that high-viz got heavily misused over here; every dog owner, jogger, push-biker, scoot-knight, GS-rider, etc... wore them... an omnipresent flood of nuke-yellow with silver stripes...
Maybe the reason Brussels now banned any reflective additions on vehicles...

Geez, your hopes are not just on "being seen". It's only part of a rider's tools.

Your hopes are on or should be on "decreasing risk" by taking advantage of known tactics and strategies. Some involve colors and lights and some on relative vehicle positioning and some on education and training of how to use the first two.

One cannot eliminate risk but you can reduce it and that's all we are trying to do in this thread not put on some high viz cloak of invincibility.

 

[the Ferret]

Doesn't do anything when people look right through you then at you...
As @Uncle Phil wrote will they drive right into a running fire truck, despite full billboard lit and surround sound blaring...
Folks drive (and walk) right into trams over here, 10ft tall, 66ft long, in bright white/red camo paint... bam! Sorry didn't see you...
Had BD folks first glaring right at me, just to pull out 15ft in front of me... and then shush me over my blaring horns at their driver's door "...can't you see I'm on the phone?!!"
So I'd rather relate on my own instincts and defensive (or advancing) riding style then put my hopes on "being seen"...

Besides that high-viz got heavily misused over here; every dog owner, jogger, push-biker, scoot-knight, GS-rider, etc... wore them... an omnipresent flood of nuke-yellow with silver stripes...
Maybe the reason Brussels now banned any reflective additions on vehicles...

Well like @ST Gui wrote nothing is perfect... but I'd rather take my chances (and do every day) wearing hi viz clothes (PROVEN in many studies to reduce accidents) and a white helmet (again PROVEN in many studies to reduce accidents), along WITH relating to my own instincts honed during 59 years of daily riding and defensive riding style, doing the weave when necessary, and even flashing my lights on occasion. Whatever it takes to arrive safely back at home at the end of the ride.

If one wants to wear matt black clothing and helmet, or wear no gear at all, and ride a matt black bike, well that's certainly their prerogative, but I believe that puts them at a distinct disadvantage when dealing with everyday traffic.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

...... and a white helmet ......

With your long career and experience in road safety, have you ever seen anything that indicates weather a white helmet is the most noticeable, even compared to a hi-viz? Just curious because they seem to be to me.

 

[the Ferret]

With your long career and experience in road safety, have you ever seen anything that indicates weather a white helmet is the most noticeable, even compared to a hi-viz? Just curious because they seem to be to me.

Studies I have read give the nod to white helmets over Hi Viz ones for some reason. I do know white helmets are incredibly easy to see

just found this quote

If you are wearing dark clothing a hi viz helmet really stands out. But if you are wearing a hi viz vest, a white helmet shows up better. It's about contrast, not just colour. May 21, 2018

 

[Weaselinsuit]

It’s not hi vis v strategic riding. It’s hi vis + strategic riding. There’s no one silver bullet.

It’s a layered approach; hi vis + strategic riding + bike in good mechanical condition + rider in good condition to ride (not fatigued, ill etc) + endless list of factors.