Rear brake issue

[Andrew Shadow]

Sorry but I don't believe that the steps can only be interpreted via speech ......

The myriad of service manuals, technical drawings, service bulletins, assembly instructions, etc., etc., etc., in existence would seem to support your belief.

However, to play Devil's advocate in Larry's defense, there can be serious consequences when these instructions find their way in to the hands of people who have no mechanical experience, no mechanical knowledge, no mechanical aptitude, but believe that they can perform a procedure because they can read. Most manuals are intended for the people who will maintain a product, not the general public. There is the expectation that the user does have mechanical knowledge, experience and proficiency. They are not written to hold your hand with basic principles that they expect that you should already know. They expect a certain level of competency. When there isn't that basic minimum knowledge and competency things can go wrong. I suspect Larry is concerned about his instructions being in the hands of such people.

Regardless of that I don't believe that less information is better. Everyone can not be held by the hand. Put the information out there, written as well as we can write it, to the benefit of as many as possible is always a better option.

 

[Kevcules]

By some thinking then, most repair manuals shouldn't be in the hands of the owner??? Maybe we need to pass a test to possess one????
Forums exist to share information and knowledge. People share opinions, experiences and knowledge and everyone benefits.
Phone calls benefit only one person at the time, but at the same time, are greatly appreciated.
This forum in particular is lucky to have such a large group of knowledgeable people and I agree that more information on here for everyone to view, is better.

 

[draser]

Hit the nail straight in the head...

 

[Sadlsor]

More "information" can be better, but for some, having someone "looking" over your shoulder is still the best, as there are subtleties and nuances which still abound. Rarely is a one-size-fits-all approach the very best method.

I have to wonder whether the potential for misunderstanding is part of the reason that BMW, Ducati, and other manufacturers have ceased making service manuals available to their owner community?

I'm not aware of any other motorcycle user forum that has someone who routinely makes themselves available to talk through maintenance issues.

We are blessed as a group, to have such a man available to us.

 

[HOS]

Thank you. I will call tomorrow.

Hi Larry, Sorry, not sure how to call you. What does" RAN List AZ" mean and White Phone". Would really appreciate talking to you.

​

The only problem I have with that, is interpretation. When I’m dealing with something as serious as brake issues, I want to know folks are doing it correctly, and understand what they are doing. I’ve seen so many folks repeating stuff incorrectly, and thinking what they did is correct, only to have the bike lock up and slide to a stop.
I’ve seen folks demonstrate the “correct” way to test their SMC, by pushing it so hard that they pushed the bike off the center stand! But, because they were able to get the wheel to slow down and stop to some degree, they were sure that it passed the test
I’m retired, and have the time, so if it’s all the same to you, I’ll keep taking to people on the phone if that’s ok.
If you don’t think I’m helping folks, and would like me to stop using my method, I will respect that and stop offering my assistance on the white courtesy phone.
Your forum, your rules, your call.
Don’t want to upset anyone.

The amount of details when troubleshooting can make a brief conversation very efficient. Once we get to the fix I will try to document all i learned in the process so others can benefit. This forum is one of the best I have experienced and critical because there seems to be few shops or individuals that really know this particular model. Being able to text pic's to clarify the discussion is a big help but would not necessarily always be good to include in a final step=by=step process. I am looking forward to seeing how the brake system performs once everything is correct. Thanks again to everyone for their inputs.

 

[Sadlsor]

Aside from the pesky SMC - which usually goes south due to neglect, more than usage - this is one of the most solid bikes I've ever owned.
Solid, meaning reliable, comfortable, and pretty efficient at multiple tasks.
Routine maintenance makes all the difference, primarily the brake and clutch fluid. From 2008 and on, little else is a recurring problem, from what I see.
Except for those damn tires that wear out quicker, the more you ride 'em.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

By some thinking then, most repair manuals shouldn't be in the hands of the owner??? Maybe we need to pass a test to possess one????

Of course not. One of the qualifiers of whether someone should have a repair manual and be maintaining something themselves is not whether or not they are the owner. It is whether or not they have the basic knowledge and abilities to use the information that is in the manual safely. Not every owner is capable of or should be doing their own maintenance while others will do a much better job of it than any dealership. My point is that most manuals provide technical information that is specific to the machine that they were written for and nothing more. They do not provide all of the ancillary information that is needed to perform that maintenance because it is considered to be common knowledge in the maintenance industry. People who do not have that prerequisite knowledge, or more specifically do not make the effort to learn it, are the ones who have a high potential of doing something not only harmful to the machine but potentially dangerous.

Below is a very over-simplified and ridiculous example to illustrate what I mean. This, by the way, is a true story.
Years ago I was watching a new hire torque two wheel halves together using a click-type torque wrench. The first bolt that he torqued broke, so did the second one, and the third. After the third I went over and stopped him to see what was going on. He had never used a click-type torque wrench before. He thought that it would somehow stop tightening the bolt when the correct torque was attained. Of course it didn't but he just kept tightening waiting for it to stop until the bolts broke. The manual instructed him to torque the bolts to XX. It did not provide instructions on what type of torque wrench to use, or how to properly set it, or on how to use it, or the influence that using extensions has on the torque, etc.. The manual assumes that anyone reading it has that basic knowledge because they should not be doing that maintenance if they do not. This guy did not have any mechanical skill, aptitude, knowledge, or experience. He should not have been doing what he was doing. Anyone who does have mechanical aptitude, who has basic mechanical knowledge, as well as some mechanical experience, would have known that something was wrong and that they were reaching the point of breaking something before the first bolt broke never mine two more after it. They would have stopped and questioned what was going on. This guy didn't because he had none of those skills and he was oblivious to what was happening. He should not have been performing maintenance on anything. He is an example of someone having a repair manual is a case of providing them with just enough information to be dangerous to themselves and to others.

Old adage- Everyone can swing a hammer, not everyone is a carpenter.

I still contend that more information is better than less and any information of value that any of us has should be encouraged to post it for the benefit of us all. It is up to each person reading that information to determine what to do with it. i.e. Use it themselves or take it to someone more competent to do the work for them. The person who wrote the information is not and can not be responsible for that decision.

 

[draser]

Years ago I was watching a new hire torque two wheel halves together using a click-type torque wrench.

I understand what you're saying, however, in this case, it doesn't sound the guy got his training and the SWI (standard work instruction) was well written. Honestly, it sounds like bad management.

 

[Sadlsor]

I suppose, in addition to all of this, is we normally associate at least some modicum of common sense for people trying to work on something.

In Andrew's example above, I'm pretty sure I would have stopped to examine the torque wrench and the instructions... at least after I snapped the second bolt.

 

[SMSW]

Got news for you guys, this website is complicated and demands a fair amount of previous experience using other forums if someone is to log on and find the answer to his problem without asking for help. When I bought my ST, I'd been a member here for maybe a month or so, and was, in a word, lost. I had no idea how to find answers to my questions, no idea how to search for an answer, and really, not owning one of these bikes, no idea what questions I should have been asking regarding my search to buy one. I'd been riding bikes for years, done all my automotive maintenance myself for 20 years, and yet, I was a novice at using this forum. I've owned and used factory service manuals for my old Triumph (mc), Moto Guzzi's, Saabs, Honda, and Toyota cars, but this forum had me flummoxed. It takes a while to learn how to use any new tool, and this one is pretty complicated. I loath the expression that something is "intuitive". It is only that if you have been taught how use the tool.

All that is to say I understand exactly what @Igofar is saying, and he is right. But the knowledge base here in our Articles is ALSO right, and even newbies benefit from being pointed to one of @jfheath's or other authors' explanations of how our bikes work.

The reality is, people don't read first and ask questions later. They will read when pushed, and that is the real value of our articles. I'd like to see Larry's troubleshooting article on the SMC. It would help a lot of folks. And, none of us is going to be around here forever. The bikes will all outlast us. Hopefully, this forum does too.

 

[Igofar]

More "information" can be better, but for some, having someone "looking" over your shoulder is still the best, as there are subtleties and nuances which still abound. Rarely is a one-size-fits-all approach the very best method.

I have to wonder whether the potential for misunderstanding is part of the reason that BMW, Ducati, and other manufacturers have ceased making service manuals available to their owner community?

I'm not aware of any other motorcycle user forum that has someone who routinely makes themselves available to talk through maintenance issues.

We are blessed as a group, to have such a man available to us.

Not sure what BMW is doing now a days, but Ducati won't even sell a service manual to the mechanics, unless they have a request on a dealerships letter head, then the disc they sell is over $500 dollars, and it can not be copied, and must remain at the dealership if the mechanic leaves said employment etc.

 

[Igofar]

By some thinking then, most repair manuals shouldn't be in the hands of the owner??? Maybe we need to pass a test to possess one????
Forums exist to share information and knowledge. People share opinions, experiences and knowledge and everyone benefits.
Phone calls benefit only one person at the time, but at the same time, are greatly appreciated.
This forum in particular is lucky to have such a large group of knowledgeable people and I agree that more information on here for everyone to view, is better.

 

[Igofar]

To your questions... a) I didn't have a problem getting fluid out the PV but, before bleeding I flushed all my brake lines with parts cleaner as system was filthy. A lot of rusty gunk came out. Then I used the vac pump and flushed and bled system via the PV port. Didn't need to pump the SMC. 2) and 3) from your description the ABS system works as intended.



This will need taken apart and cleaned (along with all the calipers) for a system overhaul.

You can test the SMC several ways: a) if bike can roll on its wheels, push the bike for a short distance and apply the front brake to stop the bike. That (using the front brake) will engage the SMC which will engage the rear caliper. Upon front lever release, if the rear brake is still on (rear wheel is locked) then your SMC isn't working; b) with bike stationary, check if there's any axial play in the SMC by lightly pushing the SMC towards the wheel hub, if any play is felt then the SMC piston isn't fully retracting and may cause rear wheel lock; c) if the rear wheel can be turned by hand, engage the SMC by pushing it's body towards the wheel hub and see if rear wheel can be rotated by hand upon releasing the SMC. If the rear wheel locks up then the SMC piston is not fully retracting; d) if the rear wheel is locked up, tap the SMC body with a piece of wood, if rear wheel frees up your SMC is bad.

All these tests are looking to detect if the SMC piston retracts back to home position after being actuated. Should the piston not retract it'll block the fluid return port that releases the pressure to the rear caliper (which is what your mechanic did when he removed the outboard caliper hose)

I cringed when I read that you flushed the rubber lines with parts cleaner, especially old rubber lines.
Can't help but wonder what that's going to do the rubber lines?
Using a vac pump, while it may seem faster/easier, won't do as good of a job removing the air from the system as a simple one way check valve, and doing everything in the correct sequence.
The system was not bled correctly if you "via the PV port" for the bleed/flush.
Yes, you do need to work/pump the SMC to get everything working correctly.

 

[Igofar]

By some thinking then, most repair manuals shouldn't be in the hands of the owner??? Maybe we need to pass a test to possess one????
Forums exist to share information and knowledge. People share opinions, experiences and knowledge and everyone benefits.
Phone calls benefit only one person at the time, but at the same time, are greatly appreciated.
This forum in particular is lucky to have such a large group of knowledgeable people and I agree that more information on here for everyone to view, is better.

The one phone call made to the OP so far has discovered quite a few things wrong.
If you read his first post, nothing looks out of the ordinary, he flushed and bled the system using the service manual instructions. But it didn't fix the issue.
Then along comes someone who does not understand brake systems at all, who takes stuff off and plugs lines, because his thinks this would fix it
One phone call, and a couple requested pictures has already identified quite a few problems and issues for our friend.
Wrong brake pads, one side of the rear pads missing the heat shield, damage/wear from metal to metal on the rotor, locked up frozen SMC that failed a couple tests so far, a damaged rear caliper mounting bracket allowing the clip to tilt, causing binding issues, disconnected lines, tilted rear caliper, rust and pitting on the rear pistons, caliper not floating freely as is should etc. etc. etc.
We have not even started to inspect and clean stuff looking for further damage yet.
So yes, I think having me on the phone served him better than youtube videos and reading a service manual so far.
We will report back with everything we find, and how we corrected and fixed everything when we get there.

 

[MattSTlouis]

Everyone should listen to Larry's advice. He is literally the ST whisperer and it you don't then you are a Pittsburg tooled dork.

 

[Sadlsor]

Everyone should listen to Larry's advice. He is literally the ST whisperer and it you don't then you are a Pittsburg tooled dork.

I have no idea what a Pittsburgh tooled dork is, but I think I can figure it out.

In my case, I actually tried arguing with Larry on our initial call, but he made his case, and I really wanted to get out fixed correctly, so I swallowed my pride (not the first time in my life, it can actually be therapeutic if you can stand the bitter taste) and followed his instructions.

The fact he didn't tell me to go to hell, made me a believer in Larry. That, plus him taking his time - because he wants these bikes running and stopping correctly - puts him in a special class of people.

 

[draser]

I cringed when I read that you flushed the rubber lines with parts cleaner, especially old rubber lines.
Can't help but wonder what that's going to do the rubber lines?

Let me help you with the "cringe"... the brake rubber lines are actually double wall and the inside is made of EPDM rubber which, if you look in the chemical compatibility table for EPDM it does not readily react with the chemical in the automotive parts cleaner.
Also, the exposure time was minimal as the lines were dried with compressed air to remove all inside debris.
So... it's all good.

What bothers me however, is that I don't know your methods to clean brake lines (or anything else for that matter) because everything is handled via the phone. It just seems that you're critical of everybody else but you keep your cards close.

Using a vac pump, while it may seem faster/easier, won't do as good of a job removing the air from the system

Check this out...



Straight out of the Honda Repair Manual, and it seems to work because my brakes are working. And you don't say why you think it doesn't do a good job, can you detail?

The system was not bled correctly if you "via the PV port" for the bleed/flush.

So, the manual recommends to bleed SMC at the PV port, the hydraulic diagram shows the SMC discharges in the PV, and yet my bleeding at the PV is not correct? Can you detail why?

So you see what's going on here?


Cheers and lots of beers...

 

[MidLife]

.......a couple requested pictures has already identified quite a few problems ......

How about posting them with your comments? It may help somebody in the future. That may be prudent given the medical issues you spoke of; we cannot be sure how much longer we will have the privilege to have you around.

 

[Igofar]

Let me help you with the "cringe"... the brake rubber lines are actually double wall and the inside is made of EPDM rubber which, if you look in the chemical compatibility table for EPDM it does not readily react with the chemical in the automotive parts cleaner.
Also, the exposure time was minimal as the lines were dried with compressed air to remove all inside debris.
So... it's all good.

What bothers me however, is that I don't know your methods to clean brake lines (or anything else for that matter) because everything is handled via the phone. It just seems that you're critical of everybody else but you keep your cards close.



Check this out...



Straight out of the Honda Repair Manual, and it seems to work because my brakes are working. And you don't say why you think it doesn't do a good job, can you detail?



So, the manual recommends to bleed SMC at the PV port, the hydraulic diagram shows the SMC discharges in the PV, and yet my bleeding at the PV is not correct? Can you detail why?

So you see what's going on here?


Cheers and lots of beers...

Ok, I'll play.... I have many folks tell me that the Honda Service manual INSTRUCTS them to use a commercially available air bleeder to flush and bleed the system, and that is the only way to do it properly (per Honda). Well, lets look at that for a minute, First off, the Factory service manual does not state that you have to use a commercially available air bleeder, if you read your manual carefully, you will see a paragraph stating something to the effect, that IF you are using a commercially available air bleeder, FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS.
So with that out of the way, you've provided a perfect example in this post of why I want to work one on one with people.
You took one paragraph out of the service manual, for (1) bleeder, and implied that you bled the entire system out of that bleeder, or at least that's what the two or three people took from that when I showed them your post. So you see, someone may see your "wording" and not understand what you meant, or you may have bled/flushed the entire system incorrectly, I have no idea and am not trying to point fingers at anyone.
Someone may read your post and decide that they don't have to follow the correct sequence with the (7) bleed valves, and seriously screw things up, simply because you posted one paragraph out of the manual, and they may think its ok to do that. Besides that, the first several pages that show your paragraph (for each and every bleeder) instructs you to drain the entire system, then rebuild all the calipers etc.
A few pages past that, it goes into how to add fluid and bleed things.
Many folks reach out to me after they completely drain all the fluid out, then can't bleed or get the air out etc.
So, in your words "see what's going here?"
For many more years than I care to admit, I've seen master Honda tech's insist that you can use VICE GRIPS to clamp down on a brake line to "get a better bleed".
I'm not of the camp where you can clamp anything on a hydraulic line of any kind, but that's just me.
I've also see folks flush out lines and end up with rubber crumbling inside the lines (very common issue with BMW brake lines) and jamming up stuff.
So, again, I don't flush out brake lines with chemicals, nor use clamps, but that's just me.
Many Honda service manuals also instruct you to replace all the hydraulic lines every four years or so, do folks do that? I doubt it, but it is written somewhere.
I'm not critical of ANYONE, only the Advice/Instructions that I provide.
And as far as keeping my cards close, I do have several decks of cards in my tool box to do magic tricks for the folks who come through the garage
I have always asked/requested that folks post pictures of problems found, and repairs made AFTER the work was finished to help other folks on the forum.
Why does everyone think I'm hiding something?
I spend several hours each and every day on the phone, often fielding as many as 15 to 20 calls a day, trying to assist and help folks, so exactly how am I keeping things from folks?
You have a question, call me I'd be glad to talk to you.

 

[Obo]

@Igofar Oh just stop it.