Glad to hear the follow up. It is always nice when we get a final result. Glad the drilling worked out.
New bike (2016-VFR1200X), need advice on a "repair" I need to make
- Thread starter Mikedo
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2006
- Messages
- 2,991
- Age
- 70
- Location
- Ilkley, W Yorkshire, UK
- Bike
- 2013 ST1300 A9
- 2024 Miles
- 000679
Is the relay provided with the lamps ?
One way of separating the two - get some silicone spray lubricant and get it onto the join between the male and female casing. Use a feeler gauge to encourage the gap to widen out.
A suitable pair of pliers - with something to protect the plastic can be used to grap the inner connector and lever it against the outer - so the action is to pry the two part apart - so you may need to find pliers of a suitable width. Don't forget to ensure that the latch is released - 'cos it aint going to move anywhere unless you do that.
But you can check if the relay works by holding it when you throw the switch. You'll feel it. You can check for voltage, and you can check for continuity - if you know which are the power leads and which are the trigger.
The lamps are 12W each. So 2A is a bit close to the current draw of 2 lights. I'd have used a 3A having checked where the power is coming from. It will still blow fast enough is there is an overload - but where is that power coming from ? - Is that connected direct to the battery. If not, then it has been tapped into some other power supply from the fuse box, and that circuit may be up to capcity. Some people think you can just put in larger fuses and all will be good. Not so. The fuse is there to protect the cable from being overloaded. If someone has used a bigger fuse, then things start to melt
Did you replace the blown fuse a 2A fuse ? Check that hasn't blown straight away.
There are two circuits to check. One is the circuit that triggers the relay. So if the relay doesn't click when the switch is thrown - that is the first circuit to sort out.
Then if that is working, its the power relay turned on by the relay.
Regarding the captive nuts. Get new ones - but once they have turned in the plastic fairing, they will always turns. Mine are secured with epoxy. The epoxy itself doesn't stick particularly well to the fairing - but it helps. What does help is that it makes it more difficult for the flange to turn. Clean everything and roughen. Put the captive nut in place with a bolt with greased threads plugging the hole. Check and fill with epoxy / or milliput with water - the water makes the milliput more malleable and it sticks better. Only a few drops. Once its done, remove the bolt and let it set.
Fairing bolts have a tendency to become tighter. So when fastening, they don't need strong arm tactics. Snugged up and a little tweak more. Note that captive nuts have a ferrule - which is slightly larger than the thickness of the plastic. This prevents the head of the bolt clamping down on the plastic. You don't use washers - and if gluing, you dont want glue under the flange.
Other fairing bolts have a shoulder which performs the same function of preventing the plastic from being trapped or cracked..
One way of separating the two - get some silicone spray lubricant and get it onto the join between the male and female casing. Use a feeler gauge to encourage the gap to widen out.
A suitable pair of pliers - with something to protect the plastic can be used to grap the inner connector and lever it against the outer - so the action is to pry the two part apart - so you may need to find pliers of a suitable width. Don't forget to ensure that the latch is released - 'cos it aint going to move anywhere unless you do that.
But you can check if the relay works by holding it when you throw the switch. You'll feel it. You can check for voltage, and you can check for continuity - if you know which are the power leads and which are the trigger.
The lamps are 12W each. So 2A is a bit close to the current draw of 2 lights. I'd have used a 3A having checked where the power is coming from. It will still blow fast enough is there is an overload - but where is that power coming from ? - Is that connected direct to the battery. If not, then it has been tapped into some other power supply from the fuse box, and that circuit may be up to capcity. Some people think you can just put in larger fuses and all will be good. Not so. The fuse is there to protect the cable from being overloaded. If someone has used a bigger fuse, then things start to melt
Did you replace the blown fuse a 2A fuse ? Check that hasn't blown straight away.
There are two circuits to check. One is the circuit that triggers the relay. So if the relay doesn't click when the switch is thrown - that is the first circuit to sort out.
Then if that is working, its the power relay turned on by the relay.
Regarding the captive nuts. Get new ones - but once they have turned in the plastic fairing, they will always turns. Mine are secured with epoxy. The epoxy itself doesn't stick particularly well to the fairing - but it helps. What does help is that it makes it more difficult for the flange to turn. Clean everything and roughen. Put the captive nut in place with a bolt with greased threads plugging the hole. Check and fill with epoxy / or milliput with water - the water makes the milliput more malleable and it sticks better. Only a few drops. Once its done, remove the bolt and let it set.
Fairing bolts have a tendency to become tighter. So when fastening, they don't need strong arm tactics. Snugged up and a little tweak more. Note that captive nuts have a ferrule - which is slightly larger than the thickness of the plastic. This prevents the head of the bolt clamping down on the plastic. You don't use washers - and if gluing, you dont want glue under the flange.
Other fairing bolts have a shoulder which performs the same function of preventing the plastic from being trapped or cracked..
You need a multimeter/voltmeter to see where you're not getting power.... the instructions say the 2 amp fuse is just for the relay trigger circuit (controlled by the switch). There is a 5 amp battery feed..... find the 5 amp and see if it's blown. If this is a new light kit, likely the relay is OK.
OP
OP
Not new, was installed when I bought the bike used. PO claims they worked fine last time he used it....Also claimed "it's never been dropped", or...Clear signs of being on it's left side once. If you look carefully the plastic support there now has a bunch of epoxy welding it together, I added some more. Also a grind on the rear "pumpkin" cover, fairly obvious it has been down.
This relay was attached to the broken part, so maybe it got damaged?
It is wired exactly like the diagram. White and black to the battery, but a green (power?) pulled off the switch for the traction control? Switched power? Shows in diagram from SW Motech, not where to get it, but to get it.
Most relays have a small diagram on the case showing the coil and contacts pinout. Or the kit instructions may have that. And, if you have a multimeter you can then probe for voltage from the back of the relay socket to see if a) voltage from switch going to the coil is present with switch on; b) battery voltage gets to the relay contacts; and c) battery voltage gets out the relay contacts when switch is on and relay "makes". That will tell you what circuit does not work.
However, the aftermaket installation should be relatively easy to trace out and find the problem. Also, you can feel the relay make when you flip the switch and rule out - if relay makes - the coil circuit.
However, the aftermaket installation should be relatively easy to trace out and find the problem. Also, you can feel the relay make when you flip the switch and rule out - if relay makes - the coil circuit.
OP
OP
I still have the fuse. The photo shows the look of the wire, burnt, curled end. I'm not sure what you meant by "blown straight away".
The new fuse is still intact. I even swapped out a second one, just in case the first was no good. I can get 3 Amp, no problem, but I want to solve the riddle first. I'm not so good with electrical. I have a meter with leads and can "poke around" but I'm not really sure what I should be seeing. I'll google some YouTube videos and see if I can learn.
The green wire with the red connector is what I believe is providing the "switched power", despite it being connected to battery by white and black?
I'm not sure if the relay is part of the kit or an add on.
Also there is apparently a harness that can be bought, or was supplied in the case of a European bike? I have grip heaters and 12 Volt supply, but no OE fog lights. https://www.crosstourer.com/index.php?topic=8979.0
I also want to replace that SW Motech switch with the Honda factory part if I can. https://www.crosstourer.com/index.php?topic=6881.0. A much cleaner look.
OP
OP
Nothing on the relay, no writing at all.
Is it a relay?
What is a relay?
To me the part just looks like a connection point to split, two into four, or vice versa.
Have you tried powering each light directly without the switch or relay to make sure they work? A wire to battery negative or ground, a wire with a fuse to positive source. In the past I've tried this with a 9 volt rectangular battery and it seemed to have enough juice to power a small LED light; might be worth a try.
How do relays work?
A simple explanation of how relays switch circuits on and off.
www.explainthatstuff.com
OP
OP
No.
The connector shown here shown inside the green box, is 1 of 2 of them. The two wires from the actual light comes to this point and joins this combiner box (relay?) and then goes back to the battery.
If I disconnect that fitting and power it directly (fused to protect) and the light lights up, then the problem is not the light, but elsewhere, and I need to start pulling stuff apart to check connections? Only other real connections are
Good starting point.
1 - the wires coming from the lights should be on the open contact pin of the relay (black box).
2 - the wire that goes back to battery should be on the common contact pin of the relay. Can you measure 12V on these wire(s)?
3 - there should be another wire in that socket (where the black box plugs into) coming from the light switch - that pin is one end of the "coil" that activates the relay. As already mentioned, when you flip the lights switch, can you feel a click if you hold the black box (which we assume it's the relay)??
4 - finally, there should be a 4-th wire, going to ground, which is the other end of relay coil.
It would be worth it to make sure the lights themselves work. If they work, then you know the problem could be the relay or connections to it.No.
The connector shown here shown inside the green box, is 1 of 2 of them. The two wires from the actual light comes to this point and joins this combiner box (relay?) and then goes back to the battery.
If I disconnect that fitting and power it directly (fused to protect) and the light lights up, then the problem is not the light, but elsewhere, and I need to start pulling stuff apart to check connections? Only other real connections are
Think of the relay as a remote switch which your on/off switch gives a small power to get the main power wires coming into the relay to close and give juice to your lights. If the wires to the relay are cut/disconnected in any way, then there is a problem in the circuit and the lights will not work. Also I think LED's have to be wired correctly to work ie. positive to positive, negative to negative (I could be wrong here).
Anyway the basics first.
The green wire, wherever its source is, should be switched power with the ignition on. So, can check in the fuse connector if you have 12V with the ignition on. With good 2A (or 3A) fuse, relay should work (feel for click), when the switch is turned on (and assuming the ground is good on the trigger circuit). The switch just interrupts the power flow to the relay.
The lights are wired separately, black is ground, white is power. If the 5A fuse is good, there should be voltage on the white wire from the battery at all times. The relay is simply a switch, closed by an internal coil that closes the contacts so the power (on the white wire) can continue to the lights. The coil is powered by your switch (call it a trigger circuit). So, with the switch turned on, there should be power on the relay terminal directly opposite the incoming white wire. If no power, then relay faulty. If power, then the problem is downstream. Do you know if the lights are actually good?
The lights are wired separately, black is ground, white is power. If the 5A fuse is good, there should be voltage on the white wire from the battery at all times. The relay is simply a switch, closed by an internal coil that closes the contacts so the power (on the white wire) can continue to the lights. The coil is powered by your switch (call it a trigger circuit). So, with the switch turned on, there should be power on the relay terminal directly opposite the incoming white wire. If no power, then relay faulty. If power, then the problem is downstream. Do you know if the lights are actually good?
Just for info, what are the 4 wire colours in the relay connector? Should be green (ignition power), white (power from battery, always on), white (to lights) and black? (relay trigger circuit ground). My guess.....
Positive to lights likely white, black is ground.
Positive to lights likely white, black is ground.
Opening their (pretty simplified) wiring diagram, it pretty much rehashes my previous post and other's.
1 - the lights are wired into the relay socket - looking at your pics it has to be White(positive) and Black(ground/chassis) wires - but you can confirm by opening up one of the lights and look at colors. The posted diagram doesn't have that info (darn...)
2 - the Green wire, as posted by other members) is the positive coming from Ignition Switch - so you only have power with Ign On. Also the schematic has it "tapped" onto the ignition wire, this needs checked as those types of connectors didn't work well for me (at least) in the past. This positive goes then to the Light Switch, so (again) a quick test (as suggested by another member) is to hold the relay and flip the light switch trying to "feel" the click. If this test passes, then we will know that you have 12V positive on the light switch and into the relay coil, which also means that the "tap" mentioned above works and the ground is good (lots of info from just one test).
3 - diagram says the White wires are 12V positive from battery, but, since it's fused you'll need to check - if Item 2 above passes - that you're getting 12V at the socket - by back probing as mentioned.
So, I guess, you have all you need (information wise) to troubleshoot this - except maybe a multimeter. If that's missing you can get by with a "lamp tester" using an old 12V car bulb with 2 wires attached (they call this old skool). Let us know.
1 - the lights are wired into the relay socket - looking at your pics it has to be White(positive) and Black(ground/chassis) wires - but you can confirm by opening up one of the lights and look at colors. The posted diagram doesn't have that info (darn...)
2 - the Green wire, as posted by other members) is the positive coming from Ignition Switch - so you only have power with Ign On. Also the schematic has it "tapped" onto the ignition wire, this needs checked as those types of connectors didn't work well for me (at least) in the past. This positive goes then to the Light Switch, so (again) a quick test (as suggested by another member) is to hold the relay and flip the light switch trying to "feel" the click. If this test passes, then we will know that you have 12V positive on the light switch and into the relay coil, which also means that the "tap" mentioned above works and the ground is good (lots of info from just one test).
3 - diagram says the White wires are 12V positive from battery, but, since it's fused you'll need to check - if Item 2 above passes - that you're getting 12V at the socket - by back probing as mentioned.
So, I guess, you have all you need (information wise) to troubleshoot this - except maybe a multimeter. If that's missing you can get by with a "lamp tester" using an old 12V car bulb with 2 wires attached (they call this old skool). Let us know.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2020
- Messages
- 2,017
- Location
- Makefield Highlands PA
- Bike
- 2016 ST1300P
- 2024 Miles
- 013434
I have a few multi meters, this is my favorite tester.
This might explain a bit for you. The coil in a relay is nothing more than an electromagnet. When you throw the handlebar switch, you are powering up that electromagnet, which pulls the lever to close the normally open contacts for power to your lights. A single pole single throw relay will not have the 87A terminal. The double throw (SPDT) gives you a normally closed contact, power it up and that contact opens and 87 closes (in electrospeak, closing means the switch has been thrown to 'on'.)
A pictorial:
A pictorial:
OP
OP
I don't have time tonight to play. But I posit the following.
1) The small led in the rocker switch lights up when I flip the switch, and ignition is on. It does not when the ignition is off. Does that mean the power is making it to the switch, but possibly not beyond?
I have yet to probe any of the connections with a meter.
2) If I disconnect one of the lines to the lights (black and white), coming from the (we'll call it a relay) and I probe those two connections I should get a reading of some kind in volts DC. Up to 12 for the sake of argument, correct?
3) I have ordered similar connectors for delivery tomorrow so I can rig up a power supply from one of the other batteries I have in the garage. Plug in and light on, I hope.
a) Do I really need a fuse in this test line?
Ray, all lines are black and white to and from battery and to lights beyond the connections. The "switched green" is clearly an add on as there is waaaay to much line for the length being used. I wish he had run it to the battery box for ease of access. I might.
I might also buy the quartet wiring addition and power from there, we'll see. I'm not so good with this angry pixie stuff.
1) The small led in the rocker switch lights up when I flip the switch, and ignition is on. It does not when the ignition is off. Does that mean the power is making it to the switch, but possibly not beyond?
I have yet to probe any of the connections with a meter.
2) If I disconnect one of the lines to the lights (black and white), coming from the (we'll call it a relay) and I probe those two connections I should get a reading of some kind in volts DC. Up to 12 for the sake of argument, correct?
3) I have ordered similar connectors for delivery tomorrow so I can rig up a power supply from one of the other batteries I have in the garage. Plug in and light on, I hope.
a) Do I really need a fuse in this test line?
Ray, all lines are black and white to and from battery and to lights beyond the connections. The "switched green" is clearly an add on as there is waaaay to much line for the length being used. I wish he had run it to the battery box for ease of access. I might.
I might also buy the quartet wiring addition and power from there, we'll see. I'm not so good with this angry pixie stuff.
OP
OP
If you need a hand I am only a few minutes away and have a bit of knowledge .