Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
Yeah, the new Triumph fixed that 'reliable' thingy quite well from what I see.
And they did a real good job of keeping the 'retro' look on a lot of the new bikes.
Is the classic sport-touring motorcycle doomed to extinction?
- Thread starter Andrew Shadow
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And they did a real good job of keeping the 'retro' look on a lot of the new bikes.
rwthomas1
Site Supporter
Funny, character is solely based on ones perception. I don't think of the ST1100 as lacking character. Dead reliability, smooth performance in any and all conditions. The predictability of it in and of itself is character. May not be the character you are looking for, but its still there....
I think you've got it pretty much wrong. If you're talking the 1960s then yes some brands were more reliable than others. My '70 Triumph Tiger 650 always started always ran, my BSA not so much. I admit buying a Honda 750 was a game changer. By the same token when my friend left New England for FL on his Suzuki 550? 2 stroke the mechanic handed him box of spare plugs and said "Take tools." He needed them, both the plugs and the tools.
A bike with character engages you while you're riding it. There is a connection between rider and bike. Even Mazda in the design brief for the original Miata wrote "car and driver as one". There are both European bikes and Japanese bikes and maybe one day even Chinese bikes that have character. Character and reliability are not mutually exclusive. For several years I had both and FJR and a Multistrada. The FJR was for LD Iron Butt rides and the Multistrada was for pure enjoyment. Then I took the Multistrada on a saddlesore ride and found out it made it a lot more fun. It proved to be as reliable long term as the FJR. The FJR is a great bike but to me its like a wheelbarrow, it does the job. That can be good if it's enough for you. If you've ridden a bike that really engages you then you get it. The bike can be an ST1100/1300 it can be any bike but it needs to have something you connect to. I think the Honda NC750X has character. It performs well beyond it's spec sheet, the chassis while like spaghetti always lets you know exactly what's going on and you can ride it like a banshee in the twisties. It feels just like a modern BMW R90 or R100 both bikes that were reliable and had character hence the NC750X must have character! So before you knock bikes with character, that have engines that can pull or rev or whatever, that handle like on rails, that transmit feel (not to be confused with vibration) and really engage you while you're riding them please drop the '60s/70s connotation of what they were then and look at them as they are today.
I rode my friend's NC750 (auto) and rather than having a rattling 2cyl noise and low power, there was nothing to it.
Sorry, just MO. Maybe a manual would be different. It is in-line with the F750GS and the gs is more fun.
I have always equated the phrase "that bike has character" to mean that it is either more visually appealing than other bikes, or riding it is a more visceral experience than other bikes.
It didn't specifically mean that the bike was unreliable, but there was a very high correlation between bikes with character and bad reliability. I think this was mostly because the engineers concentrated on a few specific areas that enhanced the character, and left everything else to chance.
the Ferret
Daily rider since May 1965
I've always thought of it that way as well. Not necessarily more unreliable, but the bike often characterized as having "character" was most often the one with reliability problems. Theer are exceptions of course.
With regards to the NC 750X DCT (or any DCT bike for that matter) I don't think you can ride a DCT bike once and appreciate it, because it is not "normal". It generally doesn't shift when you are used to shifting. Live with one for awhile though, and you will come to recognize the brilliance of it. I've been riding 59 years, about 850,000 miles, on 3 speeds, 4 speeds, 5 speeds, 6 speeds, tank shift, hand twist shift, foot shift right side, foot shift left side, and for me, once I got a DCT and just let the DCT shift when it wanted to, instead of when I wanted it to, I still went the same speeds, on the same roads as when I was manually shifting the bike, just maybe not at the same rpms, but I was still going 45 in a 45 or 65 in a 65, riding just as fast as on a manual shift bike, but was able to concentrate on lines rather than at what rpms I wanted to shift at, and the mechanics of actually doing the shifting with my hand and foot. When I am riding my manual shift 6 speed CB 1100, I often think of how nice that bike would be with a DCT trans now that I have gotten used to riding a DCT equipped bike. Besides if you just have to shift at certain rpms, you can always put it in manual mode and just toggle the upshift and downshift buttons.
Now many of the manufacturers are coming up with their own auto trans systems, Yamaha, KTM, BMW, and I'm sure the rest (except maybe Harley and Indian) will probably come up with an auto shift system as well
Auto shift might get more people into riding motorcycles. Once we have them, we can turn them to the dark side of manual
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- reluctant to start
- like to stall, cold or warm
- reluctant on the throttle/occasional cough/retarding under load/opening up
- floating clutch engagement
- floating brake pressure points
- have to be wrestled around corners
- tendency for head-shake depending on weather, air pressure and/or the basal temperature of your pillion
- accommodating a variety of electrical gremlins
Yup that's many of us around here.
Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
You forgot one more thing - lots of parts that have been replaced ....
drrod
Site Supporter
Character?
Any bike that you stop and look back at, after you get off and start to walk away (and not just to ensure that it hasn't started on fire!)
Any bike that you stop and look back at, after you get off and start to walk away (and not just to ensure that it hasn't started on fire!
)My take on auto (car or bike):
In full auto it shifts up prematurely.
Shifts down late (or not at all).
Does not shifts down before a turn in the twisties.
If shifting manually in a full auto, it will fight me trying constantly to upshift.
In a "sport"l mode it holds the gear for bit too long.
In a "manual" mode I don't feel the same as in a true manual. And it still "competes" with me on downshifting.
The only advantage is in the heavy traffic.
In full auto it shifts up prematurely.
Shifts down late (or not at all).
Does not shifts down before a turn in the twisties.
If shifting manually in a full auto, it will fight me trying constantly to upshift.
In a "sport"l mode it holds the gear for bit too long.
In a "manual" mode I don't feel the same as in a true manual. And it still "competes" with me on downshifting.
The only advantage is in the heavy traffic.
Wow it's a shocker to be part of a group with so much old thinking! Guess that's what happens when everyone's hair is either grey or gone or both.
A friend just got to drive a Porsche GT3 RS. The owner told him, put it in manual if you want but the tranny is much better and faster at shifting than you are. He said he proved the owner right. DCT is wicked cool even if I don't own one and much better than the auto shift band-aid a lot of manufacturers are now putting on their bikes. I think the only way to embrace the DCT is to buy a bike with it and live with it for a while.
Uncle Phil your last comment must mean your bikes have LOTS of character!
A friend just got to drive a Porsche GT3 RS. The owner told him, put it in manual if you want but the tranny is much better and faster at shifting than you are. He said he proved the owner right. DCT is wicked cool even if I don't own one and much better than the auto shift band-aid a lot of manufacturers are now putting on their bikes. I think the only way to embrace the DCT is to buy a bike with it and live with it for a while.
Uncle Phil your last comment must mean your bikes have LOTS of character!
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If you made these comments after riding the thing for 3000 or 4000 miles, I’d give some credence to them but still shake my head in wonder. It takes a while to learn what you’re doing with DCT as you illustrated. Learning to use the modes fluidly while riding changes everything. Even then it’s not for everyone.
Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
And I reckon the feller that is riding them based on 'parts replacement' ...Uncle Phil your last comment must mean your bikes have LOTS of character!
Agree.
You can't compare a GT3, Ferrary, Lambo, etc. tranny to the everyday vehicle tranny.
DCT or not, NC700 is riding the way I've described above. Same is the DCT Wing.
Would you be able to tell if you're riding a DCT or a CVT or a regular one without knowing it?
On a side note, I can't fathom how I would navigate the tight switchbacks in the Alps without modulating the clutch.
With the little rear brake and throttle, how else would you do it? I have never ridden the Alps, I have ridden WV, NC, TN, se OH, Beartooth and my share of tight switchbacks and to be honest I can't remember using the clutch to modulate speed. I would think using the clutch would upset the motorcycle and make it want to fall over? Every report I've read of an NC750X DCT in the Alps the riders loved it.
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I’m not surprised.
I didn't think you would