Honda's new front suspension idea. No more conventional fork?

[dduelin]

Right, and for the sole purpose of "cost cutting" and "adding fancy features that look good on glossy folders" we now have electric power steering with absolutely zero feedback, astronomically expensive to replace and buried so deep inside the vehicle, that you've to remove engine, tranny and the entire front suspension for access...
Same for the replacing crappy stop'n'go starters which are nowadays installed inside the gearbox casing...

Not everything that's new and fancy is actually good too in the end...

In the last few years I've had 3 vehicles with electric power steering and they all had really good to fantastic feedback. The Mazda 3 is one of the sweetest steering best handling small sedans sold, the CX-5 is the same in it's class of small crossovers. The Honda Accord's steering, like all Accords, is nicely weighted. It's not as sporting or communicative as it's direct competitor the Mazda 6, which is best in class, and also is also electric. As far as requiring complete disassembly of the drive train goes I have to disagree there as well. Our CX-5 took a glancing blow to the left front wheel that did require a new steering rack. The labor charged for that on the insurance claim was less than $400.

 

[dduelin]

Does it handle like the old Earles Fork ? : This is a pic of a R 69 - I had a '63 R 60/2 , I restored in the mid '80s

BMW's Paralever and Duolever equipped bikes handle nothing like an Earles fork bike. The Earles fork with the two lower link pivot locations was designed to make it easy to change the steering geometry for solo or sidecar use.

All of the braking and steering forces with telescopic and Earles forks pass into the frame through the headstock which has to be constructed very stiff and heavy as to not to deflect under heavy braking or crack over the life of the bike. In particular the BMW Telelever with it's single A-arm doesn't require a heavy stiff frame forward of the engine at all. It's one reason bikes like my R1200RT can be 130 lb lighter than a ST1300 and 150 lbs lighter than an 1100. An R1200's front subframe exists solely to support and mount the fairing and instrumentation. It bolts directly to the engine. There is no frame at all in the traditional sense. The lightweight tube rear sub frame bolted to the rear of the engine supports the rider and luggage and also locates the swing arm. The RT has a load capacity 140 lb greater than the 1300's despite weighing 130 lbs less. It demands less of suspension to support it, brakes to stop it, and gets better fuel economy. Some may say the Telelever is a solution in search of a problem but it's use does bring significant benefits.

 

[SMSW]

Some may say the Telelever is a solution in search of a problem but it's use does bring significant benefits.

Sounds to me like it is a solution to a number of problems - or compromises. With complex systems, any decision is a compromise. Systems invariably become more complex as they evolve, and simplify in minor ways to enhance reliablity as they become mature. Today's cars are way more complex than those 50 years ago, but also more reliable and they deliver so much more in the way of performance.

 

[Larry Fine]

I remember when our across-the-street neighbor bought a new '66 Pontiac Bonneville with power disc brakes. They complained about how powerful they were, but then got used to them after a few days.

 

[Gug]

It's what I have on my Goldwing and I can assure you if you take it for a ride you will be impressed. It is smoother (handles bumps) better than any suspension I have ever been on Motorcycling. It handles extremely well and feels lighter doing so.

 

[beemerphile]

Sounds to me like it is a solution to a number of problems - or compromises. With complex systems, any decision is a compromise. Systems invariably become more complex as they evolve, and simplify in minor ways to enhance reliablity as they become mature. Today's cars are way more complex than those 50 years ago, but also more reliable and they deliver so much more in the way of performance.

 

[beemerphile]

I remember when our across-the-street neighbor bought a new '66 Pontiac Bonneville with power disc brakes. They complained about how powerful they were, but then got used to them after a few days.

I am pretty sure that the '66 Bonnie was power DRUM brakes, which are indeed stupid powerful. We had a '66 Buick Electra with the same system. As I recall '71 was the first year for discs on Bonnevilles. They came earlier on the GTO, but were a disaster the first few years.

 

[ST Gui]

Reinventing the wheel?

Replacing solid rubber with pneumatic.

 

[2turbos]

Seems like if the Hossak design was so great, or any other alternative front end design was better, why isn't it used successfully in racing?

Racing is the crucible that sorts out the best designs and takes in to account all the variables sorting the factors for best performance.

When I see the Hossack in motoGP, Paris/Dakar or flat track, only then will my opinion change that it's a better suspension system.

 

[SMSW]

Seems like if the Hossak design was so great, or any other alternative front end design was better, why isn't it used successfully in racing?

Racing has its own extreme needs, and racers sacrifice all sorts of things in the pursuit of speed and handling, weight being one of them. Ever see a/c on a race car? Power windows? Remote door locks or cruise control? A better test for the GW's suspension design will be the test of time. The Telelever has been around for a while and has a proven track record. It does have some critics but I have heard more than a few Beemer owners say they wouldn't want to go back to the 'old fashioned' forks.

 

[dduelin]

Seems like if the Hossak design was so great, or any other alternative front end design was better, why isn't it used successfully in racing?

Racing is the crucible that sorts out the best designs and takes in to account all the variables sorting the factors for best performance.

When I see the Hossack in motoGP, Paris/Dakar or flat track, only then will my opinion change that it's a better suspension system.

Racing is the crucible for what delivers the highest performance on a track and within the sanctioning body's rule book. It has already been mentioned that the Hossack front end prevents 100% of the contact patch feedback from reaching the rider. That alone removes it from consideration for road racing.

Alternative suspensions are just that. Another way of doing it.

 

[Al st1100]

Having chased a few K1600's in the twisties, it seems they lack no handling problems with the wishbone front suspension. I also had major trouble shaking a new GL1800 out west in some pretty good set of twisties. I am no track racer, but have a lot of respect for those bikes handling.

Oh, I don't doubt that, but the design is counter intuitive to what I understood about cornering and why I have my reservation on anti-dive forks. Watch this short video, it explains much more than I knew but some of why I think that suspension give up something. Technology moves on and dinosaurs fade away.

 

[Kevin_56]

Oh, I don't doubt that, but the design is counter intuitive to what I understood about cornering and why I have my reservation on anti-dive forks. Watch this short video, it explains much more than I knew but some of why I think that suspension give up something. Technology moves on and dinosaurs fade away.

We as the majority that ride motorcycles are not track racers. I have ridden the "new" suspension in Arkansas on a lot of switchbacks. Not a difference in handling from my "standard" forks.. Until YOU have ridden one, don't judge by what what you understand but have not done. This is somewhat like riding darkside. Until you have actually ridden one, you really have only an understanding, but not true experience.

 

[Upt' North]

The last bike I rode with a similar system was a water-cooled RT1200 about six years ago. The front was still very vague and very much like the last bike I rode with it an RT1150. It's a disconnected feeling but one that you can trust when you get used to it.
It's certainly no reason to discount a bike and I kinda like the idea of changing out the shock in a similar way to a rear. Although in reality this wouldn't be every weekend would it. Would it?
Upt'North.

 

[RobbieAG]

I suspect these alternative front suspension designs will be used where they make sense. Honda's engineers had good reasons to select this design for the new Goldwing. Maybe at some point it will trickle down to less expensive bikes, but that will take time. In the mean time, conventional forks will continue to improve. Race bikes won't use the new design until the weight/performance equation makes sense.

 

[Mophead]

Having an 18 Wing I can attest it will lean over enough to drag your foot off the footpeg and the bike stays planted. That's all I know about the suspension. Looking at the movement of it all does take some getting used to. Probably the same as is going on inside your forks except you don't see it.

 

[ST-venture]

Having an 18 Wing I can attest it will lean over enough to drag your foot off the footpeg and the bike stays planted. That's all I know about the suspension. Looking at the movement of it all does take some getting used to. Probably the same as is going on inside your forks except you don't see it.

When I first got my 2018 GW I thought the movement of the front suspension would be distracting as well, but I find I hardly ever notice it now.
+1 on the handling - best I've seen on such a big bike.

 

[TerryS]

Given the linkage plates between the frame and the moving steering head, as well as the girder fork, this setup mightbe ideal for allowing some tuned lateral flex for the forks to maintain traction on bumps when leaned well over. Equivalent to the thin/tall rear swingarms on sportbikes that can flex to provide suspension at high lean. The Honda system looks very robust to me as there are no ball joints in the suspension just pivots, so maintenance whould be minimal.

 

[Fatjock]

Interesting. So what happens when you’re cornering? The geometry of the bike has to be different than with the standard forks?

Other than smoothing out small surface imperfections a lot better, it feels no different than any other sport-tourer, maybe more on the sport end of things rather than the touring.

 

[Al st1100]

Racing is the crucible for what delivers the highest performance on a track and within the sanctioning body's rule book. It has already been mentioned that the Hossack front end prevents 100% of the contact patch feedback from reaching the rider. That alone removes it from consideration for road racing.

Alternative suspensions are just that. Another way of doing it.

Honda patented the Hossak suspension for MotoGP back in 2016 and it never saw a race. So this suspension has been around a while.