A Perfectly Stable ST1300 Overtaking A Semi

“My '04 GS Adventure was all but unridable with the Jesse 50 liter top box mounted. Would go into a weave at anything over 80. Sans the box but with the panniers, it was OK up to 120 or so. With a small bag mounted on the pillion, the weave would come back at around 110.”
 
“just out of curiosity, do the honda bags on the st carry a speed warning? i know on the 1150rt i had, they said not to exceed 80 with them on (although I never seemed to have a problem over that speed”
 
ASPC said:
My bike is set up according to the owners manual. I don’t think it requires any special knowledge. It does have a fork brace which improved it’s handling. But any bike can be unstable if it’s not set up correctly. I think the ST1300 instability issue is a myth. There is one video on youtube where a guys says he experienced the pan weave but he was doing 110-120 mph plus with the windshield up into a 20 mph headwind, that behavior is not exclusive to the ST1300. That should be considered normal. Bikes are not idiot proof.
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I've owned a lot of motorcycles and not one acted like the ST1300 does. For a big heavy bike it's very light on it's feet and moves around more in dirty air than other bikes I've owned and currently own. I was never frightened or scared of it and it's not what I would describe as unstable. If I thought it was dangerous or uncomfortable I wouldn't have ridden it for 180,000 miles. I was very familiar with it's characteristics in all sorts of load configurations at all speeds even insane ones. Heck, I loved my ST and loved it's light neutral steering in the twisties as the tradeoff for happy feet in fast traffic. It's just not as directionally stable as other bikes in turbulence and don't confuse being it being light on it's feet with the Pan Weave. That's a completely different behavior. Running 70 - 90 mph isn't even close to speeds where the weave may begin. Feedback from riders at the press attended release of the bike in 2002 prompted Honda to recall the ST1300 and stop sell the bike from the north American market until 2003 when a fix was supposedly been found - a careful retorqueing of engine hanger bolts but the 2005 fatal LEO accident in the UK attributed to weave prompted British police forces to pull the model from service and Honda limited the P model to 120 mph. A methodical test in 2007 of an ST equipped with data logging equipment documented oscillations in roll and yaw in certain load and windshield configurations. Never experiencing the onset of weave doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
Andrew Shadow said:
Have a read through the below. The part relevant to the instability of the first year production ST1300's in 2002 is about 2/3 of the way down.

Interview: Dave Hancock – Honda Motor Europe. THE TRUTH ABOUT THE ST1300
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Thank you, that is interesting.

My post wasn’t about the weave. It was about people saying the bike responds badly to semi’s and I wanted to show mine at least does not. But this thread has evolved into the weave issue and I think they are separate things.
 
ASPC said:
“just out of curiosity, do the honda bags on the st carry a speed warning? i know on the 1150rt i had, they said not to exceed 80 with them on (although I never seemed to have a problem over that speed”
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Maximum combined cargo weight for all cargo compartments = 58 Lbs.

From the owner's manual;
Improperly loading your motorcycle can affect its stability and handling. Even
if your motorcycle is properly loaded, you should ride at reduced speeds and
never exceed 80 mph (130 km/h) when carrying cargo.
 
dduelin said:
I've owned a lot of motorcycles and not one acted like the ST1300 does. For a big heavy bike it's very light on it's feet and moves around more in dirty air than other bikes I've owned and currently own. I was never frightened or scared of it and it's not what I would describe as unstable. If I thought it was dangerous or uncomfortable I wouldn't have ridden it for 180,000 miles. I was very familiar with it's characteristics in all sorts of load configurations at all speeds even insane ones. Heck, I loved my ST and loved it's light neutral steering in the twisties as the tradeoff for happy feet in fast traffic. It's just not as directionally stable as other bikes in turbulence and don't confuse being it being light on it's feet with the Pan Weave. That's a completely different behavior. Running 70 - 90 mph isn't even close to speeds where the weave may begin. Feedback from riders at the press attended release of the bike in 2002 prompted Honda to recall the ST1300 and stop sell the bike from the north American market until 2003 when a fix was supposedly been found - a careful retorqueing of engine hanger bolts but the 2005 fatal LEO accident in the UK attributed to weave prompted British police forces to pull the model from service and Honda limited the P model to 120 mph. A methodical test in 2007 of an ST equipped with data logging equipment documented oscillations in roll and yaw in certain load and windshield configurations. Never experiencing the onset of weave doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Are you suggesting the weave exists in all ST1300’s regardless of load and or year model. As in, my bike unloaded doing 140 mph with just panniers? Yes I know overtaking trucks and the weave are separate issues.

As far as I know all bikes behave differently depending on load configuration, suspension and speed. It’s not ST1300 specific.

I think aerodynamic stability can be solved by correctly setting up the bike in the shop. I think the original weave problem was because of the swing arm and engine mounts. Once those things were addressed then it comes down to typical load, suspension and speed combinations. So this is why I say the ST1300 weave is a myth, because all bikes can behave the same way for the same reasons.

Or am I not understanding the weave problem? I don’t want it to kill me.
 
ASPC said:
Thank you, that is interesting.

My post wasn’t about the weave. It was about people saying the bike responds badly to semi’s and I wanted to show mine at least does not. But this thread has evolved into the weave issue and I think they are separate things.
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I have read many posts on here where the manner in which the ST1300 responds to very dirty air around large vehicles is confused with Pan weave, and attributed to it. Most of the posts that I have read that make claims of having experienced Pan weave don't sound like that is what it was to me.

I have been blown around by truck induced dirty air, as well as from other sources of turbulence. I have never felt unsafe, never bothered me at all, I just ride through it. I have never experienced Pan weave (2009 ST1300A). I have been well over 100 MPH, but from what I have read it does not develop unless those speeds are consistently maintained for a while. I haven't done that because I need to keep my drivers license.

I agree that they are two separate things, but you asked, so I offered a response.
 
ASPC said:
Are you suggesting the weave exists in all ST1300’s regardless of load and or year model. As in, my bike unloaded doing 140 mph with just panniers? Yes I know overtaking trucks and the weave are separate issues.

As far as I know all bikes behave differently depending on load configuration, suspension and speed. It’s not ST1300 specific.

I think aerodynamic stability can be solved by correctly setting up the bike in the shop. I think the original weave problem was because of the swing arm and engine mounts. Once those things were addressed then it comes down to typical load, suspension and speed combinations. So this is why I say the ST1300 weave is a myth, because all bikes can behave the same way for the same reasons.

Or am I not understanding the weave problem? I don’t want it to kill me.
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I've posted my thoughts on Pan Weave for many years here. All of it is available with a few minutes of searching. To save you the effort, I never said all ST1300s experience it all the time, every time the bike is ridden in excess of 120 mph. I've ridden many bikes many times in excess of 120 mph and not one acted like my 2005 ST1300 did from virtually new to 180,000 miles. I'll stand on that and move on. No need to restate it 16 years later.
 
Andrew Shadow said:
I have read many posts on here where the manner in which the ST1300 responds to very dirty air around large vehicles is confused with Pan weave, and attributed to it. Most of the posts that I have read that make claims of having experienced Pan weave don't sound like that is what it was to me.

I have been blown around by truck induced dirty air, as well as from other sources of turbulence. I have never felt unsafe, never bothered me at all, I just ride through it. I have never experienced Pan weave (2009 ST1300A). I have been well over 100 MPH, but from what I have read it does not develop unless those speeds are consistently maintained for a while. I haven't done that because I need to keep my drivers license.

I agree that they are two separate things, but you asked, so I offered a response.
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I agree. I used to ride a KLR on the interstate.. talk about being blown around. I would get tired of rocking from side to side. :rofl1:

I think my ST is smoother at higher speeds than it is a lower speeds. But I also want to keep my license.
 
dduelin said:
I've posted my thoughts on Pan Weave for many years here. All of it is available with a few minutes of searching. To save you the effort, I never said all ST1300s experience it all the time, every time the bike is ridden in excess of 120 mph. I've ridden many bikes many times in excess of 120 mph and not one acted like my 2005 ST1300 did from virtually new to 180,000 miles. I'll stand on that and move on. No need to restate it 16 years later.
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Have you experienced the weave?
 
I actually think some people confuse the weave with tank slappers, or is the weave as violent as a tank slapper, or is the weave just gentle fishtailing?
 
When it happened a week a go it was a steady left/right rhythmic full body chassis wobble. No where near as rapid or violent as a tank slapper type handlebar shake. Didn't feel uncontrollable but I didn't fight it either. Just took a mental note, "oh, that's interesting?!", and carried on. Settled as soon as I eased off.

Have run a lot of miles on this machine in various configurations and speeds and have only felt this once or twice. I put it down to aerodynamic issues. Just have to be judicious with how much junk is hanging off the back. (Sidebags are not the issue at all.) Otherwise not something I worry about.
 
pmatulew said:
When it happened a week a go it was a steady left/right rhythmic full body chassis wobble. No where near as rapid or violent as a tank slapper type handlebar shake. Didn't feel uncontrollable but I didn't fight it either. Just took a mental note, "oh, that's interesting?!", and carried on. Settled as soon as I eased off.

Have run a lot of miles on this machine in various configurations and speeds and have only felt this once or twice. I put it down to aerodynamic issues. Just have to be judicious with how much junk is hanging off the back. (Sidebags are not the issue at all.) Otherwise not something I worry about.
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Thank you for responding with this information.:)

If that is all it is, I’m not worried about it.
 
Andrew Shadow said:
I just had a quick look, and even though Canada went ahead with mandatory speed limiters in heavy trucks in response to a US proposed law, it seems that the law still has not been passed in the US. I thought that it had been by now.

From what I remember, Canada introduced it so as to maintain consistency with the US trucking industry for whom this requirement was proposed back in 2016 or so. Curiously enough, in Canada the limit was set at 105 KPH, which was 5 KMPH above the legal limit just about everywhere at the time. This was done because the US was supposed to set their limit at 65 MPH, which is 105 KMPH.
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The speed limits on Nova Scotia and New Brunswick divided highways has been 110kph for a couple decades now. And even if 100kph was the limit, it makes sense to leave up to an extra 10kph for manoeuvring capability.
 
ASPC said:
My bike is set up according to the owners manual. I don’t think it requires any special knowledge. It does have a fork brace which improved it’s handling. But any bike can be unstable if it’s not set up correctly. I think the ST1300 instability issue is a myth. There is one video on youtube where a guys says he experienced the pan weave but he was doing 110-120 mph plus with the windshield up into a 20 mph headwind, that behavior is not exclusive to the ST1300. That should be considered normal. Bikes are not idiot proof.
Click to expand...
Apparently the British police had at least one officer go down due to a weave at over 180kph. I have read (albeit not conclusively) that the weave was exaggerated due to the high CG of the added police gear behind the driver.

My 2005 was somewhat floppy side to side until I changed the tires. But even so it has more of a gentle wobble than my newer 2014 model. But the 2005 also had extra headlights added to the bottom of the side roll bars which is an extremely unfortunate (and poorly thought out) location since it adds wind resistance and reduces aerodynamic efficiency. I have not noticed an issue with my 2024, but as others have said, any bike gets dicey at high speeds in high winds and behind other big vehicles. When this happens I lower the windshield for more front wheel grip and less bounce.
 
Back in the late 1970"s I was a mechanic at the local Kawasaki dealership in Monterey, CA. We serviced all the Kawasaki Police bikes in the area. I remember that the Kawasaki Police bike had a rather heavy radio and small top case mounted on the rear rack. Kawasaki designed the rack this was mounted on with a swivel and hydraulic damping assembly. You could grab the rear of the radio and case at the back and it would swing side to side about 2 or 3 inches and it was damped. I asked a Kawasaki factory service rep about this system and he told me that in testing the police bikes they found that the original non swiveling rack would cause the bike to weave at high speed. When they redesigned the rack system with the dampened swivel it stopped the weaving problem. Maybe this idea has some merit.

Dan
 
Andrew Shadow said:
That is curious.
For many years now, all heavy trucks in the US are limited to 65 MPH by law. The use of speed limiters to ensure this is also mandated by law. I am sure that there are scoff-laws that disable their speed limiters, but I can't see it being more than a tiny percentage, so I find it hard to fathom that most were traveling at well above 70 MPH.
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Drivers in most states are also prohibited "by law" as you said from texting while driving.

No enforcement = no compliance.
 
Andrew Shadow said:
That is curious.
For many years now, all heavy trucks in the US are limited to 65 MPH by law. The use of speed limiters to ensure this is also mandated by law. I am sure that there are scoff-laws that disable their speed limiters, but I can't see it being more than a tiny percentage, so I find it hard to fathom that most were traveling at well above 70 MPH.
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I call BS! What is your source? I'm in the trucking industry and have never heard of this regulation. Some companies limit the speed of their trucks but the government does not.
 
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