Where did the recommendation for Honda M-77 Assembly Paste start?

CYYJ said:
Snip ......

I've looked at the different products that have been mentioned in the first three pages of this discussion - one product that clearly states an operating temperature range is the Loctite LB8012 paste, which is suitable for use up to 400˚C. The 'Jet-Lube MP-50' label shows an upper operating temperature limit of 185˚C - whether that is sufficient for our needs I do not know.
Michael
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FYI : The label on the can of Jet-Lube MP-50 I recently received says , " Service Rating : -300[SUP]o[/SUP] ( -185[SUP]o[/SUP] C ) to 750[SUP]o[/SUP] F ( 400[SUP]o[/SUP] C ) 300,000 psi Film Strength "

So, it's also good up to 400[SUP]o[/SUP]​ C , same as the Locktite LB8012 .
 
Someone explain why we need so high temperature lube?

Also 300,000 psi? That's beyond the strongest piece on the bike.
 
We don't, but that's the rating of the stuff. In my last post, I just wanted to make the point that the Jet-Lube MP-50 and the Locktite stuff have the same temperature rating, contrary to what was stated in another post.

It would be interesting to calculate the pressure applied to the splines when the bike is developing maximum torque. The gearbox multiples torque output of the motor, so that would also come into the equation. But 300,000 psi sounds like a good enough rating to me.
 
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Jim Van said:
It would be interesting to calculate the pressure applied to the splines when the bike is developing maximum torque. The gearbox multiples torque output of the motor, so that would also come into the equation. But 300,000 psi sounds like a good enough rating to me.
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It would. However, since not all of the male splines are touching the walls of the female grooves at any given moment due to machining tolerances and the position of the swing arm, we would have to approximate or even assume the worst possible case - i.e. say only two splines were engaged at a time.

If, however, the strength of the steel is less than 300k psi yield strength (I have not looked hardened steel up) this becomes moot (see Doug's post #102).
 
OK so nobody wants to step up and say it? So here it is folks Loctite Moly Paste "IS" the replacement for Honda Moly 60 paste.... There I said it and posted it on the INTERNETS.... All else is a moot point, we can close this thread and move on with our lives..... Whew, it feels pretty good to be relieved of this burden....
 
I got it, David ...... Just my way of saying we need to continue this conversation. This is getting almost as good as an oil thread. What can be more important than engine longevity and spline longevity ?? The wonderful world of Tribology !!
 
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SMSW said:
It would. However, since not all of the male splines are touching the walls of the female grooves at any given moment due to machining tolerances and the position of the swing arm, we would have to approximate or even assume the worst possible case - i.e. say only two splines were engaged at a time.
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If any of this was the case, Honda engineers are worthless. The position of the swing arm has no bearing on the spline contact patch. The rear hub is held in place by the spines and axle. The swing arm just allows for a smooth ride, think hard tail, not. Tolerances are to ensure assembly when one item is manufactured to the high side and the other to the low, Not to allow such a sloppy fit that only 2 splines are engaged. If that were the case that the fit was that sloppy, the final drives would be spitting teeth, left and right.

Based on the pictures provided by Igofar and others, the type of lube does matter.

I have seen Raymond (Ziamon) ride and will order what he uses. Proof is in his longevity of the splines.
 
Kevin_56 said:
If any of this was the case, Honda engineers are worthless. The position of the swing arm has no bearing on the spline contact patch. The rear hub is held in place by the spines and axle. The swing arm just allows for a smooth ride, think hard tail, not. Tolerances are to ensure assembly when one item is manufactured to the high side and the other to the low, Not to allow such a sloppy fit that only 2 splines are engaged. If that were the case that the fit was that sloppy, the final drives would be spitting teeth, left and right.

Based on the pictures provided by Igofar and others, the type of lube does matter.

I have seen Raymond (Ziamon) ride and will order what he uses. Proof is in his longevity of the splines.
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Assuming only two splines being engaged would be what the engineers call a " worst case" analysis, I believe.
 
Jim Van said:
Assuming only two splines being engaged would be what the engineers call a " worst case" analysis, I believe.
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not really

As Kevin pointed out, the axle aligns the drive spline and driven spline surfaces so they mate properly. They designed it so the load would be distributed over all the spline surfaces (about 32 of them or so) and remain distributed over all of those surfaces under all conditions.
 
dwalby said:
not really

As Kevin pointed out, the axle aligns the drive spline and driven spline surfaces so they mate properly. They designed it so the load would be distributed over all the spline surfaces (about 32 of them or so) and remain distributed over all of those surfaces under all conditions.
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More than two abut fewer than 32 splines are actively engaged at any given time.
If I recall correctly the gears are helically cut are they not?


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For people who think it doesn't matter what you use in the splines, here goes 2 pictures of my Valkyrie splines after just 14K miles using what the shop mechanic thought was 'good enough':
final_drive_01.jpgfinal_drive_02.jpg
 
DavidR8 said:
More than two abut fewer than 32 splines are actively engaged at any given time.
If I recall correctly the gears are helically cut are they not?
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they are not, note in all the pictures that have been posted they are straight teeth. Also, they are not gears, as in meshing/unmeshing as they rotate, the male/female parts do not rotate relative to one another, they remain in one orientation constantly. As the female spline circle is rotated by the driveshaft the wheel matches that rotation through the spline connections.
 
dwalby said:
they are not, note in all the pictures that have been posted they are straight teeth. Also, they are not gears, as in meshing/unmeshing as they rotate, the male/female parts do not rotate relative to one another, they remain in one orientation constantly. As the female spline circle is rotated by the driveshaft the wheel matches that rotation through the spline connections.
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My apologies, I misinterpreted what was being said.


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dwalby said:
not really

As Kevin pointed out, the axle aligns the drive spline and driven spline surfaces so they mate properly. They designed it so the load would be distributed over all the spline surfaces (about 32 of them or so) and remain distributed over all of those surfaces under all conditions.
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That would be perfection. In reality, more than two splines would take the load, but not equally. But to do a "worst case" analysis when calculating the maximum pressure that the moly has to withstand, only two splines engaged should be assumed - 180 degrees apart. And , in reality the only way all splines would be equally engaged is if the machining was perfect and matched between the inner & outer splines - an impossibility in reality.
 
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Savago said:
For people who think it doesn't matter what you use in the splines, here goes 2 pictures of my Valkyrie splines after just 14K miles using what the shop mechanic thought was 'good enough':
final_drive_01.jpgfinal_drive_02.jpg
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Three questions: 1.) How close to the ocean do you live ? 2.) Do you believe the mechanic ? Did he bother to grease the splines ? ( They look awful dry. ) 3.) Does the mechanic smoke those funny little cigarettes while he works ?
 
Jim Van said:
That would be perfection. In reality, more than two splines would take the load, but not equally. But to do a "worst case" analysis when calculating the maximum pressure that the moly has to withstand, only two splines engaged should be assumed - 180 degrees apart. And , in reality the only way all splines would be equally engaged is if the machining was perfect and matched between the inner & outer splines - an impossibility in reality.
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I think I get what you're saying Jim, but I think you're exaggerating too far in the other direction. There is some machining tolerance, but notice how the splines are ramped, not square. As the wheel fits into the drive unit, the small machining tolerances are taken up by the two ramped surfaces mating together with the film of moly paste between them, so all the surfaces are going to have similar (but not identical) mating areas. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are all identical, but I think the machining tolerances are better than you're suggesting with your worst case assumption. It may also be possible that there's just enough metal flex under load to absorb those tiny mating differences so that all splines are reasonably well loaded.

But I'm an electrical engineer, I'm guessing just like you are.
 
Doug : Did you take a strength of materials course ? It's a basic core engineering course that I believe all disciplines take, kinda like taking a thermodynamics course.

Anyway, worse case analysis always assumes the extreme ( worse case ) situation, so of course I'm all the way in the other direction.

Maybe a BSME or MSME can clear this up. BTW, I did one year in a BSME program, but after getting into electronics in the US Navy, I went the EE route. Let's keep this going, maybe we can break the 20 page mark.
 
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