Where did the recommendation for Honda M-77 Assembly Paste start?

Jim Van said:
Interesting. And their GD-525 Moly Grease is recommended for motorcycle splines. But they don't state what the % moly content is.
GD-525
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Hmmm, looks like they might have bought over Guard Dog's left over stock. GD-525 is just moly grease and has 30% moly content.
 
Hey there IgoFar,
Sinse Honda has discontinued M60 apparently, what is an equivalent substitute? I think you told me once over the phone, but I forgot what you said. I do remember you saying that someone's bike you worked on had the incorrect grease on the splines and it was all caked up and I think causing some damage. Did I remember that correctly?
Thanks,
Mike
 
dwalby said:
And I wonder why Honda would discontinue such a magical product if the net result was all drive splines would turn to dust within 10k miles if they did.
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Are we referring to this (part #08734-0001):
moly.jpg

Honda discontinued that? I was at Honda of Houston recently - they always had it hanging in the parts area. That day, they did not, and I asked if they moved it. The parts person said they don't stock it, but could order it. He looked up my account and could see I bought 4 tubes back in 2015. I did a search online and I see it listed at a number of places.

Someone may have mentioned this in this thread already, but how about "known as LOCTITE®8012 or LOCTITE® Moly Paste" - from their TDS:

"LOCTITE®LB 8012 contains 65% molybdenum disulfide for maximum lubricity. It is a heavy, black paste with unsurpassed lubricating qualities. Machine tool marks and other irregularities are reduced to a mirror-smooth finish by its lubricating action. LOCTITE®LB 8012 reduces friction on threaded fasteners,including bolts, nuts and studs. The low and uniform friction coefficient of 0.06 creates reliable assembly conditions.Lubricant stays in place through heat, load and vibration to ensure a trouble-free disassembly."
 
ZIAMON said:
My choice and the splines "look like new" at 233,000 miles.

TS70 Moly paste.

https://www.tsmoly.com/anti-seize-lubricants-compounds-moly-paste-with-mossub2sub-p-84.html
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That looks as though it could be a good alternative. Key terms - Paste, not grease; 70% MoS2; NLGI Grade 2 and a nice summary phrase 'TS-70, with 70% by weight of molybdenum disulfide, provides uniform and durable boundary lubrication under extreme pressure, in wet or corrosive environments, and over a wide temperature range. '


They have a UK distributor as well. I've dropped the manufacturers a line. Honda too.
 
caldercay said:
Are we referring to this (part #08734-0001):
moly.jpg

Honda discontinued that? I was at Honda of Houston recently - they always had it hanging in the parts area. That day, they did not, and I asked if they moved it. The parts person said they don't stock it, but could order it. He looked up my account and could see I bought 4 tubes back in 2015. I did a search online and I see it listed at a number of places.

Someone may have mentioned this in this thread already, but how about "known as LOCTITE®8012 or LOCTITE® Moly Paste" - from their TDS:

"LOCTITE®LB 8012 contains 65% molybdenum disulfide for maximum lubricity. It is a heavy, black paste with unsurpassed lubricating qualities. Machine tool marks and other irregularities are reduced to a mirror-smooth finish by its lubricating action. LOCTITE®LB 8012 reduces friction on threaded fasteners,including bolts, nuts and studs. The low and uniform friction coefficient of 0.06 creates reliable assembly conditions.Lubricant stays in place through heat, load and vibration to ensure a trouble-free disassembly."
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Marketing concerns me sometimes. 'Machine tool marks and other irregularities are reduced to a mirror-smooth finish........' directly implies abrasion, not lubrication, although on a fine scale.
 
jfheath said:
That looks as though it could be a good alternative. Key terms - Paste, not grease; 70% MoS2; NLGI Grade 2 and a nice summary phrase 'TS-70, with 70% by weight of molybdenum disulfide, provides uniform and durable boundary lubrication under extreme pressure, in wet or corrosive environments, and over a wide temperature range. '


They have a UK distributor as well. I've dropped the manufacturers a line. Honda too.
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Experience has proven it's worth to me. I had 4 Valkyries before the ST1300 and those bikes are spline killers. Both the hub spline and the drive shaft spline. A good amount of Valk riders use the TS70 with acceptable results.
 
dwalby said:
they state the moly content as 30% in that link Jim
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Thanks Doug - I missed that at the bottom of the table. So maybe 30% moly is good enough. I use "HELP" moly grease. It's been working fine and it's cheap. I would pay 6 times more if it was necessary, but it looks like it isn't.
 
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Are we referring to this (part #08734-0001):
hondapartsnow.com has the moly 60 paste. $12.98 . Replaced by part#08798-9010 according to hondapartsnow.com.
Boats.net has it as well
toolpartsdirect.com

hondapartsnetwork.com also says it has been replaced by part#08798-9010 which is called Moly Paste (M77)
 
I just looked up the part number for Honda moly 60 paste on a couple Honda parts websites and both said it was replace by a new part number which turns up as M77 paste, which is part #08798-9010.
 
caldercay said:
I did a search online and I see it listed at a number of places.
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And you've got as much chance getting the M60 paste as getting the Mirror and Fairing Deflector sets these 'Honda' parts places.

I too wonder why Honda dropped the M60 paste for the M77 stuff.


Oldbikefixr said:
directly implies abrasion, not lubrication, although on a fine scale.
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As opposed to the abrasion you'd get with half the lubricating component? If that stuff is equivalent to the Honda M77 I don't see the problem.
 
ST Gui said:
I too wonder why Honda dropped the M60 paste for the M77 stuff.
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I don't think that they did. The suggestion from Dow Corning is that their M77 is not up to the same job as their G-n Paste - which is recommended for the ST1300 splines by Honda. See my post #17.

Anyway, I got a reply from Honda UK this morning. Here it is:

Dear Mr. Heath,​
​
Thank you for contacting Honda UK.​
​
I did some research on your enquiry and also checked with our technical department to see what they would recommend. What we are currently using in our dealerships for such cases, as an alternative to the Honda Moly 60 paste, is the "Motul tech grease 300" and our technicians advised that it should be appropriate for your ST1300 Pan European. Our dealerships might not have it available on the shelves, but our parts department has access to it and can supply it in case an order is placed. You can locate the contact details of your nearest Honda dealership using the link provided below, and our partners will be more than happy to assist you with this.​

I note that even though I referred to M77 in my enquiry, their response makes no mention of it. Instead, they have found a substitute. However, I also note the careful use of the phrase 'should be appropriate' rather than 'is appropriate'.

I am wondering whether there were different uses for the Moly 60 paste - those of us who applied it to splines, and those who used it just as a waterproof, sticky, high temperature anti-squeal lubricant for the back of brake pads. For the latter, then M77 is a clear alternative. But Dow Corning's M77 paste states it is for low to moderate pressures, not the extremes they specify for their G-n paste for the splines, which is recommended by Honda for the splines (Honda Workshop Manual).

Me ? I'll still be looking for the G-n paste, although I am awaiting a reply from TsMoly - mentioned by Ziamon

-------------------------------

Ok - the Motul Tech Grease 300 has a spec sheet on their website, but it is written in Russian. So I've put it through Google translate:

Edit 24 Sep 2020 - The Motul Spec sheets are here. https://www.motul.com/es/en/products/tech-grease-300 Not a hiff of molybdenum disulphide or mention of sutiability for splines


TECH GREASE 300​
​
HIGH-TECHNOLOGICAL UNIVERSAL PLASTIC LUBRICATION. ON THE BASIS OF THE LITHIUM COMPLEX, TECHNOSYNTHESE NLGI 2 - ANTI-BREAKTHROUGH PROPERTIES.​
​
Application High-tech multifunctional grease. It is used for lubrication of various joints, joints, hinges, rolling bearings, hub bearings, ball bearings, cables ... Suitable for use in any technique, working under normal or increased loads: cars, motorcycles, water technology, construction machinery, agricultural machinery, stationary equipment…​
​
Temperature of use from -30 ° C / -22 ° F to + 150 ° C / + 302 ° F at constant load and up to + 200 ° C / + 392 ° F at peak loads.​
​
Specifications ​
Classification: DIN 51502: KP 2 P-30​
​
Multifunctional lubricant based on synthetic components and lithium soap. It has in its composition extreme pressure, antiwear, antioxidant and anticorrosive additives.​
​
Advantages of Motul Tech Grease 300: Excellent high temperature properties: the dropping point is higher than + 260 ° C / + 500 ° F, which allows continuous operation under temperature conditions up to + 150 ° C / + 302 ° F or + 200 ° C / +392 ° F at peak loads.​
​
Longer service life than conventional lithium greases. Excellent low temperature properties: use temperature from -30 ° C / -22 ° F High resistance to oil film at high loads. High antiwear and extreme pressure properties. Excellent water resistance, anti-rust and anti-corrosion properties. Good adhesion to the surface.​
​
​
Physicochemical data​
​
Color, visually Green Consistency class, DIN 51 818 NLGI 2 Thickener (lithium soap) Lithium Penetration number - 60 cycles, ASTM D217 265/295 x 0.1mm Dropping point, ASTM D2265> 260 ° C /> 500 ° F Corrosion resistance EMCOR, IP 220 0/0 Test in the rolling bearing *** FE-9 Test, DIN 51 821 F50> 100 hours at 150 ° C (302 ° F)​
 
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Its interesting that Honda is recommending something without Moly, when their service manuals specify Moly. I got to thinking about that the grease you referenced and Honda is recommending in that email and wondered whether Moly really needs to be present and got to thinking of another similar scenario with splines and immediately thought of slip joints in vehicle driveshafts. The fact that the diameter of the splined shaft is much smaller, the vehicle is much heavier (think large trucks), the power output is higher, sometime much higher (again think commercial diesels with upwards of 1000 ft/lbs of torque) and the wear occurs in 2 dimensions (the splines slide as they rotate as the differential goes up and down), I am thinking that the forces and stresses would be exponentially higher than in our bike diffs. In over 25 years of driving heavy trucks, as well as owning a couple, which dictated doing my own maintenance, I have never greased with or seen greasing done with anything but regular chassis grease, and I cant ever remember hearing of a yoke failure. When I was younger, I was into off-road vehicles and I do recall yoke failures in 4x4's, but they were usually related to lack of maintenance/grease and/or submersing in water/mud. Now, I am not saying stop what you are doing. I am going to continue to follow Hondas recommendations, because they seem to work and I wouldnt experiment to find out what I missed in my thinking for the sake of a few bucks. Just had a moment where I thought "hold on here a second" and would welcome some dialog and thoughts as to whether Honda is recommending overkill. I realize heat is likely an issue, but I dont think moly is the answer to that and the grease jfheath referenced seems to have that covered. Also, I would be interested to hear if anyone has experienced spline damage from not using the recommended grease. I fully accept that I could be missing something here, but what is it.... 'splain it to me Lucy...LOL
 
Igofar said:
Wanna bet a BBQ dinner that I find about a dozen things in need of repair on your bike?
Ride up my way and I will do one of my OCD free inspections and see what we find :)
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I'll bet you real Texas BBQ, if you ride to my house and check out my bikes, you'll find zero rwong with them. Go on, I dare ya!
 
Well, I got skunked. I went to boats.net, saw Honda Moly60 paste for sale complete with picture of the product, decided to order some. Got a confirmation email saying the order went through as Honda Moly60 paste. Then got a shipping notification saying that M77 paste is on the way. I guess I will be sending it back as soon as it arrives.
Whatever happened to truth in advertising?
I was hoping that what they were selling was the remaining stock of a discontinued product.
 
Catdriver said:
Whatever happened to truth in advertising?
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You think they were lying to you? I think the truth probably is an automated system 'corrected' your order.

Honda stopped selling M60. They started selling M77. For some reason (other than the kid at a parts counter starting a mime) dealers got referred to the M77 p/n and if not receiving any explanation rightly assumed Honda replaced M60 with M77. I'd welcome seeing any actual evidence to the contrary.

I will say that vendors should keep their websites up to date so that 'truth' doesn't suffer at the hands of laziness or expense. Now if the website advertised 'New Old Stock of M77!' that'd be a different story.

Maybe if you accused the vendor of bait and switch they'd pay for the return of the M77 and refund your purchase.
 
I vote for.....let's dump this can of worms on the floor.

I emailed American Honda about the extinction of M60 grease. Got a real phone call this morning.

1-M77 is the recommended replacement for M60, according to 'engineering'
2-Most any moly grease, assembly lube or paste will work as a sub for the 'intent' of the original M60 suggestion by Honda.....also according to 'engineering'.
3-The important thing is to keep the drive splines lubricated and hard grease removed prior to applying fresh grease.

All this according to Honda engineer, Massi, who phoned me....was hoping for an emailed response I could share. I'm just a messenger this afternoon.
 
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