What is Your Heated Clothing Paradigm

Andrew Shadow said:
Windchill has a definite and serious affect on us warm blooded humans, it has no effect on batteries.
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My point was mainly about using lithium vs alkaline, but you are correct except for the point I had in my head about wind chill which didn't make it to text. My brain gets ahead of my typing many times. I was trying to cut a long post short and omitted my point.

Wind chill has the effect of shortening the time that it would take to bring, say a room temp heat controller, down to outside air temp. Therefore, because you used it once on a shorter ride below its temp range, doesn't mean the batteries would hold up on a longer ride.
 
the Ferret said:
Really, they mandate you have to have special tire to ride in winter up there?
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Between December 1st through March 15th all vehicles (with some exceptions) must have winter rated tires at all wheel positions that are in contact with the road.
Winter rated tires are those that have been certified with the three-peak mountain/snowflake symbol that has been uniformly adopted by the tire industry to signify that a tire meets this criteria. Motorcycles are not exempt. Motorcycle tires with this symbol are available but I have no need for them- I won't be riding in a Montreal winter.

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the Ferret said:
Really, they mandate you have to have special tire to ride in winter up there?
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Yes, a number of provinces have mandated the use of winter tires with the Mountain/Snowflake symbol on them on all registered motor vehicles. Quebec, where Andrew lives, requires winter tires during the months he mentioned. Here in B.C., they are required for the majority of the Province's highways. Some require them from October 1st to April 30th, others end the period on March 31st. There are some exempted highways in the more temperate areas, e.g., along the coast on Vancouver Island or the Lower Mainland. Roads in cities/municipalities are also exempt.

Edit: I see Andrew snuck in ahead of me....
 
For over 20 years I rode with a Widder vest and Widder gloves in cooler weather. My worst trip was on the Blackbird, coming back from having some aux lights prototyped at The Electrical Connection in Knoxville TN. Took most of the day to fabricate the metal bracket, the harness, and install it, as Lewis was looking for a Blackbird to make a pattern for it. It was February, and thus getting dark once it was all done. No hand protection on the 1100XX, no heated grips, but I had my Widder gear... no problem, right?

Well, it really WAS a problem, because the temps were headed to the low 20s, and I swear I must have stopped at every flipping interstate Waffle House between Knoxville and Birmingham, to get out of the wind and drink some hot coffee. It was a LOOOON-NNNNG cold ride. As mentioned, it was sometimes difficult to undo the D-rings on the helmet when I got off the bike. My hands were taking a beating.

After a couple of decades the wiring began to fray, so I repaired the connections a few times, and finally upgraded (Pat Widder had retired by that time) to Warm and Safe, a jacket liner and gloves. This jacket actually has long sleeves, and the gloves are much less cumbersome and more flexible, and altogether more modern and updated. I have the wiring on the ST1300 as well as the GSA, which has surprisingly good wind protection. AND handguards, so much easier to add the new style Hippo Hands -- which are amazingly effective in their own right. They just don't work as well on the ST, as there are no handguards to keep them off the levers.

Even with heated grips (and seat), my hands will get cold in the 30s, so the WnS gloves are most welcome.

Also as mentioned, the jacket liner is best worn over a thin layer to be close to the skin. That's a little annoying, because putting on a long-sleeved shirt over the jacket liner means I may have to remove my shirt, then the liner, when I get to where I'm going. But for riding, it's a great setup. I add whatever insulating layers I wish over the jacket liner, depending on how cold it is. I have several riding jackets which are adequate alone over the jacket liner which is over a long-sleeved t-shirt or a winter base layer.

Fleece neck gaiter, or full balaclava, depending on need.

The tops of my thighs are what gets cold first in the worst of the cold here, so cold weather base layer under street pants, with riding pants over all that, prevents that. I don't think I want to mess with heated chaps or pants liners or even socks. My feet rarely get cold while riding.

At my age I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone anymore, so I have no qualms on repeating myself... don't stop me, even if you've heard this before: "I HATE being cold!" And with a reasonable budget, appropriate priorities (motorcycle!), we have the technology available such that there's no reason to suffer due to freezing temperatures.

In the end, if I'm traveling this time of year, I'm wearing electrics, and I'm packing adequate layers in case the power dies. It's 12v, so if it really does die, I'll likely have additional issues to deal with. (Why won't this bike start...?)

I'm not a competitor in the Paul CB Memorial Ride. I've only ridden at 29 degrees thus far. It won't get below zero F. here in most years.
 
Andrew Shadow said:
Between December 1st through March 15th all vehicles (with some exceptions) must have winter rated tires at all wheel positions that are in contact with the road.
Winter rated tires are those that have been certified with the three-peak mountain/snowflake symbol that has been uniformly adopted by the tire industry to signify that a tire meets this criteria. Motorcycles are not exempt. Motorcycle tires with this symbol are available but I have no need for them- I won't be riding in a Montreal winter.
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Just happened to be a story about this on the local news tonight.

Last year 28 people were killed in motor vehicle accidents directly attributable to having tires in poor condition or not having winter rated tires on the vehicle according to coroner's reports. In 2023 the police service of the island of Montreal issued 1,400 tickets to people for either having unsafe tires that are worn beyond the legal limit or for not having winter rated tires on when mandated. Police, as they always do at the start of every winter and just after the December 1st deadline, have already had one of their campaigns where they check vehicles for winter rated tires, for windows properly cleared of snow, and for seat belt use. It is a $322.00 fine for not having winter rated tires on after December 1st. Despite that two of my nephews and one of my nieces still don't have their winter tires on. People don't learn or they learn the hard way.
 
Andrew Shadow said:
Last year 28 people were killed in motor vehicle accidents directly attributable to having tires in poor condition or not having winter rated tires on the vehicle according to coroner's reports.
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I find statements like that to be directed more to trying to support an existing position that what is really happening. Does the report state how these people were killed? excessive speed for the conditions? poor driving skills (probably the biggest factor)? To say the tires were directly attributable is a very strong statement. We have all witnessed the "lock the wheels and hope" style of winter driving. Sort of along the lines of "had to lay it down". Even the use of the word "accident" is suspect. That word has the connotation of being random and unavoidable. Driver error crashes/collisions are not accidents.
When we ice raced, we had an "unstudded" class. You can maintain control and some pretty impressive speeds if you know what you are doing.

Large money is spent on things like ABS, lane departure warning, automatic braking, AWD, mandated winter tires, etc. All the while dealing with the biggest factor in crashes is pretty much ignored (the driver). Stems from our "driving is a right not a privilege" that we have in this country.
 
In my admittedly anecdotal experience, the two most common traffic accidents are rear enders or left hand turns. Both mainly attention, or lack thereof, based with speed a close second.

That being said, winter tires work better and do provide a noticeable increase in braking and steering ability. The key to winter driving can be summed up in "No sudden movements". Easy controlled driver inputs work best.
 
One reason I don't ride in the Snowy winter is to many cages haven't a clue how to drive in the stuff. Needed new tires on the Mazda went with snow rated all seasons. They may wear out quicker but have no place to store extra set of wheels.
 
drrod said:
I find statements like that to be directed more to trying to support an existing position that what is really happening. Does the report state how these people were killed? excessive speed for the conditions? poor driving skills (probably the biggest factor)? To say the tires were directly attributable is a very strong statement. We have all witnessed the "lock the wheels and hope" style of winter driving. Sort of along the lines of "had to lay it down". Even the use of the word "accident" is suspect. That word has the connotation of being random and unavoidable. Driver error crashes/collisions are not accidents.
When we ice raced, we had an "unstudded" class. You can maintain control and some pretty impressive speeds if you know what you are doing.

Large money is spent on things like ABS, lane departure warning, automatic braking, AWD, mandated winter tires, etc. All the while dealing with the biggest factor in crashes is pretty much ignored (the driver). Stems from our "driving is a right not a privilege" that we have in this country.
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No, no more detail given in the report than what I wrote. I know where you are going however- Figures can be manipulated to suit a cause. I don't think so in this case. The coroner's office investigates all accidents in the province that result in a death and generally they don't give a hoot what the government agenda is. They are often at odds with the government because of changes that they are calling for to reduce traffic accidents/deaths and they feel that the government is ignoring their recommendations.

Keep in mind that I did not write deaths attributable to no winter rated tires. I wrote tires in poor condition and/or not having winter rated tires on the vehicle when required. The numbers were not segregated in to two separate categories. Some of these accidents most certainly occurred in the summer and had nothing to do with winter rated tires.

The only thing that I can offer is that of all of the accidents that resulted in death the coroner's year-end report only singled out these 28 as being directly attributable to the tires, meaning that the coroner ruled that this was the most significant contributing factor that resulted in the accident being deadly but not necessarily the only one. There are several different categories. Deaths for which the major cause of has been ruled excessive speed are logged as such. The same is true for inadequate driver skill level for the type of driving, deaths due to driving while impaired, deaths due to poor road design, deaths due to poorly maintained brakes, or poorly maintained roads for that matter, etc.. The fact that these 28 were specifically listed with the condition/type of tires as being the cause of the accident indicates that after conducting the investigation this is what the evidence convinced the coroner of.

Beyond that I don't know. I have not read the actual report myself and won't be doing so. Even if I did I most certainly do not have the knowledge or the skill level to refute or challenge the coroner's expertise and what they ruled.

As a side-note, there was another segment on the news from a local tire shop where people were still getting their winter tires put on 10 days after the deadline. They showed one car that had just come in to the shop. Not only did it not have winter rated tires on but the summer tires that it had were completely bald. It was not a case of the reporter being sensationalistic either. The cameraman did a close-up of one the tires and there was nothing left of it. It would not even be possible to measure the tread depth with a gauge because there was no tread left to measure. These tires were so bald that this car would skate around on a damp road at 90° F.

We have already had several snow falls and ice events in Montreal so far that have resulted in very slippery road conditions. It would be like driving on an ice rink with this car and this guy was out driving around like this. I would have no trouble at all believing that these tires were listed as being the single most significant contributing cause of an accident that resulted in death no matter what time of year it was and no matter what the conditions were. This car would be extremely unsafe on the road at 30 miles per hour in the summer let alone in winter conditions.
 
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drrod said:
I find statements like that to be directed more to trying to support an existing position that what is really happening. Does the report state how these people were killed? excessive speed for the conditions? poor driving skills (probably the biggest factor)? To say the tires were directly attributable is a very strong statement. We have all witnessed the "lock the wheels and hope" style of winter driving. Sort of along the lines of "had to lay it down". Even the use of the word "accident" is suspect. That word has the connotation of being random and unavoidable. Driver error crashes/collisions are not accidents.
When we ice raced, we had an "unstudded" class. You can maintain control and some pretty impressive speeds if you know what you are doing.

Large money is spent on things like ABS, lane departure warning, automatic braking, AWD, mandated winter tires, etc. All the while dealing with the biggest factor in crashes is pretty much ignored (the driver). Stems from our "driving is a right not a privilege" that we have in this country.
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There are plenty of opportunities to cite vehicle owners for poor operation and repair of their vehicles. Ticketing people for not having the correct tires based on a calendar is absurd. Here is the example: I have a nice convertible sports car. It has summer performance tires on it. It is NEVER driven in the snow, and rarely in the rain. I do however take the vehicle for a short ride during the winter when conditions allow. Those conditions would be perfectly dry days when the roads are absolutely clear, dry and as salt free as possible. Why? Well the tires have a habit of "flat spotting" if the car is parked for too long. Driving the car when I can keeps this from happening. If some glorified tax collector with a badge wants to cite me for this I'd be mightily pissed off. The operation of my vehicle under those conditions is a threat to no one. If they want to cite people for this, do so when conditions warrant the use of snow tires. There are places where they check tires before they allow you to pass. Or make it a hefty fine should you be involved in an accident, in inclement weather with substandard tires. It is simply another case of punishing the masses for the actions of a few. And a blatant cash grab. Rant off.
 
rwthomas1 said:
There are plenty of opportunities to cite vehicle owners for poor operation and repair of their vehicles. Ticketing people for not having the correct tires based on a calendar is absurd. Here is the example: I have a nice convertible sports car. It has summer performance tires on it. It is NEVER driven in the snow, and rarely in the rain. I do however take the vehicle for a short ride during the winter when conditions allow. Those conditions would be perfectly dry days when the roads are absolutely clear, dry and as salt free as possible. Why? Well the tires have a habit of "flat spotting" if the car is parked for too long. Driving the car when I can keeps this from happening. If some glorified tax collector with a badge wants to cite me for this I'd be mightily pissed off. The operation of my vehicle under those conditions is a threat to no one. If they want to cite people for this, do so when conditions warrant the use of snow tires. There are places where they check tires before they allow you to pass. Or make it a hefty fine should you be involved in an accident, in inclement weather with substandard tires. It is simply another case of punishing the masses for the actions of a few. And a blatant cash grab. Rant off.
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I understand your point but the difficulty is when mandating something like winter tires, it's very hard to develop enforcement standards with exceptions. It's much easier to set one standard and then hopefully encourage those enforcing said standards to apply it judiciously. In other words, it's next to impossible to develop standards or regulations that can fit or adapt to the numerous situations that it might be applied.

The other issue that arises is financial ability to comply with the regs. These kinds of measures hit folks at the lower end of the wage scale hardest. Typically, they are often driving cars euphemistically described as "beaters" and requiring them to pony up another $1,500 is imposing a pretty onerous financial burden.

Finally, re whether those without winter tires cause accidents, I found this article from when Quebec mandated winter tires. It says that Quebec found that 10% of the drivers on the roads did not have winter tires and they were involved in 38% of the accidents. No mention of methodology or how they determined a causal link.
 
I'm a service advisor at an Acura dealership. It never ceases to amaze me at how many "unsafe" cars are on the road.
With all the bald tires, worn out brakes and anything else you can think of that I see daily. People tell me that they will "get it fixed" next time. I don't know how some of these folks even get home.
On really bad safety issues, we will write on the work order that the car is not safe to drive and make them sign it before they leave. And this is just one dealership!
Be careful out there because there are lots of vehicles that could go out of control at any second.
 
st11ray said:
I'm a service advisor at an Acura dealership. It never ceases to amaze me at how many "unsafe" cars are on the road.
With all the bald tires, worn out brakes and anything else you can think of that I see daily.
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So very true.
I once had a work order to change a burnt light bulb. I drove the customer's car from the parking lot to the garage bay. I had stop to get out to open the garage door. I couldn't stop, I hit the garage door because there was as close to no brakes as you can get. I warned the service advisor about the brakes who told the customer who was waiting for the car. He said to never mind the brakes, just do the light bulb. He had to take the car away on a tow truck. Allowing it to leave on the road could put the garage's license in jeopardy.
 
Weaselinsuit said:
them to pony up another $1,500 is imposing a pretty onerous financial burden.
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My wife’s daughter had non matching balding tires on her car, she was over a couple of weeks ago when I noticed this so we bought four winter tires as an early Christmas gift. The cost for four 195 65 R15 was just over $500 Canadian, admittedly these aren’t top shelf Michelin tires but new tires can be had for a lot less $1500.
 
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