UK Bike Cop Killed on an ST

Hi Guys well the issue on this Highway policeman getting killed on his 1300 afraid was 9 November 2005, but the inquest only going on now. Incident happen while in high speed training on a motorway in Merseyside, full details were never fully been released but it involved rider overtaking and hitting a truck at very high speeds (approx 110mph) with a uncontrollable weave reported by the instructors following. A second policeman out training was also killed so after on his 1300 but note at low speeds and collided with a park vehicle.
This debate on the weave has opened up a huge response from other police forces in the UK, stating its excites and has been there since the 1300 was launched and adopted for the police and emergency services. Honda completely denied the problem and still do, but quickly brought out the top box spoiler and saying tires pressures were critical issue for the weave. (But sadly it did nothing to eliminate it)
This major concern on safety at high speeds has been mainly with the emergency services carrying extra equipment.
Its got to stage now since that November incident that many police regions are and have been withdrawing the 1300 from service completely and going back to the 1100 pan or BMWs.
It?s a bit of a tight lipped subject over here but some regions have told police riders not to buy 1300 even for they own personnel use. Many police riders if asked are open about the weave problem.
We have to openly admit the speed weave is over 90mph to 130mph and why are we doing that speed anyway and breaking the law. And would you have a claim against Honda if proven.
Its funny that here in UK pan riders who ride two up fully loaded report the weave less to almost zero then those riding solo with or without top box.
Here in the UK were 70mph is the limit but 80-90mph is normal. The pan sits at 90mph with out any indication of the speed. So its quite easy to get to drift up to a (possible) weave situation.
Fixed speed cameras are everywere in UK, in vans, mounted in unmarked cars and on bikes like Hayabusa to tail you on motorways. It?s a cat and mouse game now, which is a huge income for the police regions in fines alone, so yes we all do speed.
With the euro train now we can cross over and gain access to the autobahn with no speed limits, is were many off us who travel 100-130mph for long distances are aware that the weave comes and goes depending on road surface and wind direction. Its accepted now and it excites and those who do travel at these speeds are prepared to live with it.
It?s a fantastic bike the 1300 and not much can touch it, if asked only a few would consider a bike change for the above problem. Honda needs to be careful, as the public services are a big customer. UK police alone run nearly 500pans.
Voyager (UK North west Pan club)
It isn't a problem on our side of the pond but civilian bikes don't have a light pole or two sticking up in the airstream nor high mounted heavy gear boxes where a top box would be.

I'm sorry for the loss of two fine men but this issue just goes on and on and on.....
 
Re: BBC News ST1300 WOBBLE

"For Honda the safety of our riders is paramount," a spokeswoman said.

"We will continue to liaise with the police in light of the coroner's verdict.

One would hope they will "continue to liaise" as well with the larger ST community.

Styles
 
Re: BBC News ST1300 WOBBLE

Thanks for the info.

They mentioned going 110mph and losing control. I know that my ST1300 will do that and exhibit no wobble whatsoever, even with the Givi on. I wonder if it's something to do with the accessories they add to the bike. The constable went off during "training" - at 110mph!? And there was no mention whether this was an isolated case or another log on the fire.

Please keep us informed if there are any new developments.

BlaSTr
 
I just wonder how often the head stock bearings are checked on Police bikes?
Unless the officer does it, as far as I know they would only be checked at MOT time am I wrong? None of the problem bikes would be old enough for the need of an MOT.
 
I've got almost 40,000 miles on my ST 1300 now and I've done a lot of highway runs over 100 mph. My top speed on the bike was 148 mph on a straight stretch of flat road in southern Arkansas.
I have had some high speed wobble.....and I have had a bike as steady as a rock. There are so many factors to consider. Tires/pressure, weight/trim issues, accessories, i.e. poles (duh), surface over which the bike is traveling, wind...not only speed but I've found direction in relationship to direction of travel is very critical.....
I've experienced mostly very stable runs over 100 mph. In the runs with wobble issues....I can pretty well establish in my own mind/case, that tires were the culprit. I also always come to that kind of speed carefully and in every case felt the wobble (if there was wobble) start in a small way and slowly amplify as I contined to add power. When I experienced wobble, I got to a point where I knew it was time to back down and NOT lose the battle. I'm sure others will point to other things or perhaps combination of things that may be the controlling factor(s) in the lack of control.

I've got a GIVI 52 topbox that's on the bike most of the time. I load the bike heavy at times and run two up often.

This is a complex issue and I hope that all parties do a very careful and honest job working out solutions that make for a better bike in the future. I love the ST1300 and would hate to see it go away because of litigation or political positions.

Forest
 
Re: BBC News ST1300 WOBBLE

Yes most do have a strobe pole.
Paul

I remember reading a thread on this forum about this same problem. A test was done where a second strobe pole was added, to make the wind load symmetrical.
The wobble was either greatly diminished, or completely resolved.
 
Hi Keith....

I'm still putting as many miles on the bike as time permits. I have to 'lay low' during the Dallas Opera season each year....as I put in 6 hour or more a day on my clarinet...six days a week. I do continue to ride a lot....just not the multi-day, high mileage kinds of rides. This past years season is over and I'm riding more now....a few days in the Hill Country this past weekend, which was great. I plan a trip to Boulder, Colorado the end of May, to visit my youngest daughter. She attends the University of Colorado. I'll make a run to Richmond, Va soon...to visit friends....and do that run starting south starting on the southern end of the Natchez Trace, run up the Trace to Nashville and then over to Va. A lot of good road for the ST on that run!!! Maybe I'll dip into NC and have some fun...
I'll give you a shout next time I'm in your area. That Pie in the Sky place had very good grub.

Cheers

Forest
 
Re: BBC News ST1300 WOBBLE

I remember reading a thread on this forum about this same problem. A test was done where a second strobe pole was added, to make the wind load symmetrical.
The wobble was either greatly diminished, or completely resolved.

I've been thinking about this for the last day or two. On several occasions I have been driving a cage in freezing rain which begins to accumulate on the radio antenna. After it gets to be 3/8" to 1/2" in diameter it begins to oscillate violently from side to side.

THAT reminded me of this famous video from 1940 when high wind begins to cause violent oscillations on the cables of the Tacoma narrows bridge...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Fi1VcbpAI

And THEN I remembered these disturbing photos from Mark Lawrence's page showing an obviously VIOLENT ST1300 crash that occurred for unknown reasons. NOTE THE POLE on the bike before the crash!!

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Green.html

A pole-induced oscillation at a certain windspeed COULD produce a catastrophic result.

Just thinking out loud. Any engineers in this place??

STeve :07biker:
 
Answering my own question... I suddenly realized I have an old friend who works for Boeing and has a PhD in aeronautical engineering!! DOH!

I emailed him, and he is forwarding my question to another colleague who has more expertise in this area, but in part, his initial response follows:

Every structure or system has one
or more natural frequencies. If you pound (or tap) on a structure at
that frequency it will deflect more and more until the deflection/motion
tears the structure apart. The placement of the natural frequencies has
a lot to do with the distribution of the masses in the structure and the
stiffness of the structure.

What I know about the Tacoma Narrows bridge is that the wind (at the
right speed) was the cause of the forces that excited one of that
bridge's natural frequencies (there are usually multiple natural
frequencies)until its deflections shook the bridge apart.

A motorcycle is going to experience vibrations of different frequencies
as it cruises at different speeds. So a motorcycle could be stable at
lower speeds, unstable near a speed that excites a natural frequency,
and then stable again at even higher speeds. If the instability is too
great you get a wreck (due to loss of control) or a catastrophic failure
(a part breaks due to a crack starting and then growing across a
structure). Usually the loss of control comes on gradually and causes
people to slow down so that the loss of control diminishes. A
catastrophic failure is sudden. At least one of your pictures shows a
break that could be the results of a crack propagating.

Since the natural frequencies depend on the mass distribution and
stiffness when you change the mass distribution and/or the stiffness you
change the natural frequencies. It is possible that adding a mass on a
pole (radar detector) could cause a natural frequency to occur a driving
speed and that that could cause a problem.


I'll add more information if I receive a further response from his colleague. In the meantime, I was also thinking about seeing stop signs oscillating VIOLENTLY in the wind- sometimes rotating as far as 180 degrees left to right at a certain wind speed. I think we're onto something here- and that the poles (and top box?) may be the source of oscillation at a certain speed.

Still thinking out loud,

STeve :07biker:
 
Re: Possible police bike problem in U.K.

the Force I work for withdrew the 1300 also, I experienced the weave but my bottle went and i gently shut the throttle, honda tried to pass the buck with us and claimed all sorts as the cause including " rider capabilities" which to me is utter b*ll.

We checked the worst of the bike, even had it into our local Honda dealers to firstly check all the torque settings on the engine/frame/swingarm and removed all the police equipment but it made absolutely no difference whatsoever.

We actually sent video footage of the bike to Honda to show them the apparent problem but it made no difference. Apparently after months of haggling the worst bike was returned and Honda eventually admitted that they didi not know what caused the problems on this bike but it was apparently returned to civillian spec and sold on to some unsuspecting member of the public.

I agreee fully with what HankSTer says and pass my condolances to the officers family, I could go into the saga in depth again but before the "crash" of the website I posted a couple of items fully explaining the experiences we had and if someone has more time than me, I am sure someone will find it. I am sure it was under wobble & weave or something similar.

I will try find the video footage and somehow try post it, but if anyone has questions please PM me and I will try explain again fully the problems we had.

Oh and to the unsuspecting member of the public who bought a white 04 plate 1300 from a honda dealer...unlucky and keep the speed down!!!

Ride Safe
Hi, lawmanuk:

The regret, my English is not very good.

I have ST1300 in Taiwan.

I got a ST1300 High Speed Weave Problem !!!
I don' t know What happened?
I try to change the tire, change the shock absorber oil,
check bearing......
but has not helped.

I have some video to share with you.

The weave is Occurs in 170 kilometers.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VutXlebJbSw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VutXlebJbSw

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcfBdJQfRjw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcfBdJQfRjw


--
Best Regards

George Huang

Email: george@utitech.com.tw
 
The one thing I notice in those video clips which is common to both is that the ST was stable until passed by another motorcycle.
In these instances the wash from the other machine appears to have instigated the instability of the ST.
A phenomenon not unknown to jet jockeys and other pilots when encountering wake turbulence.

If the ST is running on the edge of a stable 'flight' envelope at any speed and that envelope is disturbed the result is instability.......

With Police spec machines with all their 'add ons', particularly those add ons which affect airflow, the slightest additional disturbance of the flow over the surfaces of the bike when travelling at speed would cause a much greater transition into an unstable condition.

I seem to remember something about laminar airflow and separation of the airflow from surfaces causing severe departure from the normal performance of airframes and aerofoils, is there perhaps anyone else who knows more about this?

Just my thoughts....:think1:
 
Hi.
At last a true representation of the problem that everyone can see and understand. This is exactly the kind of instability that I have experienced.Standard bike standard screen same result.
Ed.
 
FWIW, Over here in UK during the late 70's early 80's, there were a few bike cops killed and injured in stability relaed accidents. They were all riding R series BMW twins. The manufacturers could find nothing wrong at the time.
 
Hi.
At last a true representation of the problem that everyone can see and understand. This is exactly the kind of instability that I have experienced.Standard bike standard screen same result.
Ed.

What speed were you doing and what luggage and/or passenger were you carrying at the time? What kind of road were you travelling along and what were the traffic conditions?
 
Hi.
This has not happened only once but many times. Panniers on and off, loaded and empty. Screen high and screen low, Preload almost to top and damping increased makes no difference.The only perceptable change is when the screen is lowered all the way down.This has the effect of raising the speed at which the instability starts. The lowest speed I have had this happen is around 110mph the highest is 130mph.Sometimes it has just gently rolled side to side but it has also started to get worse at which point the only thing to do is slow down.Traffic conditions have never really played a part as I have only ridden at these speeds on clear roads.The tyres have never been more than half worn.I have stuck with the original 020 Bridgestones and run them at 42 42psi.Before I get slated for breaking the law I must point out that these experiences have taken place in a country where such speeds are legal and never with a passenger.For most of the time the bike is superb but when the kind of speeds above are reached something is not quite right. I appreciate some of you have never had the problem and good luck to you but just be carefull.:confused:
Ed
 
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