UK Bike Cop Killed on an ST

Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
25
Age
55
Location
Earby, Lancs, UK
Unfortunately a UK bike cop was killed earlier this week whilst returning to base from instructing fellow bike cops in the nearby countyside.

The quote below has been taken from a UK CBR 1100XX forum, and was posted by a member of the Transport Police

Murt said:
Just veiwed a thread on a Cop site about a fatal accident involving a Merseyside police bike instructor ( M58 on Tuesday I think) on a Pan ST 1300.
ALL of the bikes have now been taken out of service after this unexplained accident.

It may be for 'checks' but a lot of officers have commented on worries after high speed weaving ( lock to lock !) on these bikes.
Also.. comments on the stability when the tyre pressures change by only two or three psi.
I am obviously not saying that these bikes have a problem ( arse covering time) but, for those of you who have one, or know someone who has one, take care !

Can't get the page to copy due to it being password access.. sorry.

Murt.

A very sad day for the poor guys family, our thought go out to them.
Will keep you up to date with any developments.

Stu
 
Killed?

I'm very sorry to hear this, but I am a little confused.

Was he "killed" by another vehicle or did he lose control and "die". I'm quessing the latter based on the weave discussion afterward. Semantics really, but "killed" assumes another party was involved.

The police bikes must handle very differently (wieght?) with all the gear on. I've never experienced lock to lock weave and I've taken her to 120mph at least.
 
Murt said:
...cannot get the page to copy due to password protection...
Murt

If Murt couldn't copy the article, has he tried to capture the screen to the Clipboard and paste into Word or like?

Would like to see the article.
 
Cutting from BBC news About Accident

Crash officer 'cared for victims'
A police officer from Merseyside who died in a crash on the M58 in Lancashire spent several years supporting road accident victims.
Pc David Shreeve was on a motorcycle training course when his bike collided with a lorry in Skelmersdale.

The 38-year-old, who joined Merseyside Police in 1987, leaves a wife, a two-year-old son and a daughter, five.

Chief Constable of Merseyside, Bernard Hogan-Howe, paid tribute to Pc Shreeve, who was "popular and well-respected".


This has truly been a tragic loss of an experienced officer

Chief Constable Bernard Hogan-Howe

Pc Shreeve, who lived in Wirral, was posted to the traffic division in March 1994 where he trained as a family liaison officer three years ago.

He regularly supported victims of serious and fatal road traffic collisions.

Chief Constable Hogan-Howe said: "This has truly been a tragic loss of an experienced officer, who spent his recent years caring and offering support for others.

"Dave was popular and well respected by his colleagues, going out of his way to tutor and mentor officers of less experience than himself.

"The letters and phone calls of thanks he received from bereaved families and victims of crime are testimony also to his kindness and professionalism, qualities which will be sorely missed by us all."
 
Hi speed weave/fatal/UK

Maybe it's immaterial, but I'm of the understanding Honda does not sell the Hondaline top/box/trunk for the ST1100 in the US due to aerodynamic stability problems which cause them to be wary of law suits here. I wonder if this is true for the ST1300 as well? I see people rushing to install aftermarket trunks back there and wonder. Is the Hondaline trunk available thru Honda parts in the US. If not, it's probably because of the corporate fear of litigation.
It appears this UK officer was killed crashing into or being hit by a truck... trucks in Brit talk are "Lorries." As a bike instructor, I'm sure he knew of any high speed stability issues induced by aerodynamics of equipment installed behind the rider or by a weight to the rear bias caused by gear back there.
I've had and cruised ST1100, shall we say, well into the triple numbers, above "ST Nominal" on occasions with NO weave ever experienced... no trunk back there and no "GIB" either.... JR
 
Sorry to hear this news. Always a sad day when a fellow motorcyclist gets hurt and a very sad day when one dies.

My condolances to his family and friends.
 
JReviere said:
I've had and cruised ST1100, shall we say, well into the triple numbers, above "ST Nominal" on occasions with NO weave ever experienced... no trunk back there and no "GIB" either.... JR

FYI, I've had the ST1300 upto 1xxMPH indicated with a Honda top-box on [loaded]. No weave. Rock solid. Mabe the lights/extras that police motorcycles have could be the cause of extra turbulance.
 
CruisingDog said:
FYI, I've had the ST1300 upto 1xxMPH indicated with a Honda top-box on [loaded]. No weave. Rock solid. Mabe the lights/extras that police motorcycles have could be the cause of extra turbulance.
I've had my ST1300 up to similar speeds with the Hondline top-box too. No problems at all. But, the conditions were perfect (no x-winds, no other traffic), I was riding in "still air." Who knows, there are so many factors that can affect high-speed performance. As CruisingDog pointed out, perhaps the police extras played a role. A sad situation regardless of the cause.
 
I suspect there is a lot to this story that we don't yet know and probably never will. Also, I've learnt through experience to be very wary of the accuracy of any news reports especially in circumstances like this where dramatisation and exageration, presumably to increase circulation of the story, seem to be in order. No matter what the source.

Here are some facts I do know... Not all ST1300's have been grounded across all police forces in the UK. I know this because I saw three on the roads of Wiltshire this morning. Also, not that it even contributed, they don't have top boxes fitted. They do have a pod where the pillion seat should be which I believe houses the comms systems etc. but this is nowhere near as large as a top box.

At the recent Bikesafe course I attended I spoke to a number of the officers who had nothing but praise for the ST saying it was by far the best bike many of them had ridden. In some cases this was a statement from officers who've ridden many different bikes over many years. Not one of them mentioned anything about high speed weaving and two of them were the 'creme de la creme' of police motorcyclists being members of the queens escort.

There are many, many factors that could have caused this police officer to collide with the truck, or the truck to collide with him, which would have been way outside of his, or anyones control, and no amount of advanced training could have prevented. Perhaps he had a blow out, perhaps a slow puncture. Perhaps he skidded on some diesel. Perhaps he'd put all his years of training and experience into full practice and yet at the very moment he decided to pass the truck, the driver made a manouvre that caused them to collide.

The truth is we simply don't know, and anything anyone suggests until the facts are known is pure speculation.

In the meantime, it is a very sad day when any person is killed - on an ST or not.

Regards,
 
I attended a BikeSafe this year too, and a couple of coppers did say to me that they know of some handling issues that some police forces have experienced and are (presumably) being investigated by Honda due to the almost exclusive use that the UK police make of the ST. On the other hand, I have spoken to other bike cops who say the 1300 performs very well and have no problems with it.

I should say that any problems that the police have encountered - from what I have learned - are right up at the top end of the performance envelope, an area which they will use more than most of us, more freqently....

As has already been stated, this death last week is a chilling reminder that even the most capable and qualified people can still have accident's. Very very sorry for his family and colleagues. I hope the cause of the accident is determined for their sake alone......
 
Hi guys,

this subject has had quite a lot of replies over on the Blackbird forum, a lot of which I think are quite alarmist from people who have not spent any amount of time on an ST.
Below is a reply from another guy who is also a bike cop.

Can I say first off, that what I say now is not any official report, simply my findings on the police spec ST1300.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I felt very sad when I first heard about the officer in Liverpool. It came through on an email to one of my supervisors. Here was a guy training to do what is one of the most enjoyable aspects of policing and dies doing so. I really feel for his family and colleagues.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Until earlier this year I was allocated an older Pan, the ST1100. I felt this was a superb bike, easy to lift onto the centre stand, panniers correct size to fit folding cones and A4 all weather writers in, handled perfectly but suffered slightly from a pulling forward feeling at your back at speed. Looks-wise, compared to the ST1300 the ST1100 is an ugly git.

Then I moved stations and was allocated a newish ST1300. I'd ridden them during training and when my old bike was in for a service but now I had one day in and day out. And although it is comfortable to ride, it knackers my back putting it on the centre stand, appears to have less useable capacity in the panniers and due to handling problems is now restricted to 100 mph!

Earlier this year all the force's ST1300 went back to ***** for modifications to the suspension because of horrendous weaves and tank slappers around 120 mph.

I don't know the costs of buying the bikes, refitting them to police spec and then modifying the suspension but when they came back I had to test ride mine (as we all did). I took the bike on a windless, dry day onto the motorway. The tyre pressures were correct, tyres in very good condition and I weigh 16 1/2 stone. (Probably 17 stone when togged in full protective gear). I had not changed the suspension settings from how it was received back from the factory.

The bike started to weave at 120 mph and when I tried to ride through it, the weave started to develop into a tank slapper. Its not just my bike, all but one of the motorcyclists report the same experience. (The one who didn't experience the problem is only about 11 stone). It is a frightening experience.

I do not know the weight of the radio, lights and messaging equipment fitted to police bikes. In the panniers I usually carry 4 fold away cones, a small first aid kit, waterproof jacket and trousers, A4 size all weather writer, breathaliser, tyre depth gauge and a few writing pads. A guess at the combined weight of stuff in the panniers being 4 to 5 kilos spread between the two panniers.

One of my sergeants has a civilian spec ST1300 pan and reports no problems whatsoever, even when touring fully loaded with a pillion abroad.

I like Hondas. The build quality is the best there is...in my opinion. It is a MUCH more comforatble bike to ride than the FJR, (we've got a police spec FJR), the ST1300 gives better weather protection than the FJR and the BMW (we have a couple of these), and is easier to patrol on. But the handling aspect is worrying. Having said that, the occasions where speeds in excess of 100 mph are needed do not happen (to me) on a daily basis. As an Advanced Police Rider I've been trained to ride at the maximum speed that the bike will allow. If I was VIP trained, that WOULD mean using well in excess of 100 mph many times and obviously the ST1300 is struggling in this area!

But what do I do if there is a report of someone driving dangerously and fast, say a mile or so further up the road? I can't catch them up if they are moving if I'm restricted to 100 mph.

Would I have an ST1300 for myself? Yes, if they were cheaper and I was a bit older. But I'd tend to leave it more on the side stand because it's balance for the centre stand is poor. My BMW Rockster is so well balanced here compared to the ST1300. Also, I say yes, I'd have one because I can't see myself reaching 120 mph when off duty.

So there you are! My opinions / experiences.

I have to say that I have had a weave from my ST, but we were fully loaded with a pillion and were at the wrong side of 120mph, and even then it wasn't what I would consider to be alarming.
I am also of the opinion that;
there is nothing at all fundementaly wrong with the St's handling considering its size and weight,
other factors must play a part in any handling problem, a lot of which can be very difficult to recreate.

stu
 
The big question should be when were the offending bikes built? Remember Honda didn't release the ST1300, in the USA, until modifications were made and the engine retorqued. The improper torquing of the engine was supposedly the cause of the weaving. I thought the older bikes were supposed to have been recalled for this problem.

Phil
 
Without jumping to any conclusions about the cause of this particular collision, there seems to be a lot of buzz regarding the instability issue attached to it. Hopefully, some good factual information can be shared by parties involved in the investigation so that we can know if it was the bike, the rider, another involved party, or a combination of those elements.

Stuey, can you get the e-mail address of the officer that posted the information on the Blackbird site? Or, give me a link to which posting it's on. I would like to contact him directly and share information about our experiences on the ST. I did try to find it on my own, but had little success. I would appreciate anything you can provide.

I will say that the only high-speed instability I've ever experienced was when both of my tires were extremely over-inflated to 50 psi (by me, due to a faulty gauge). I started getting serious headshakes in the 100-110 mph range, and by 120 mph it was, well, worrisome. However, the bike returned to its normal stable self that same day after checking (and lowering) the pressure.

I am not trying to equate this experience to the Merseyside incident. Rather, I'm trying to understand what may be causing other continued stability issues as indicated by the officer who posted the info that Stuey passed on to us. Hopefully we can learn something that will help all of us, whether it's related to the Merseyside officer or not.
 
IslandCopp said:
Stuey, can you get the e-mail address of the officer that posted the information on the Blackbird site? Or, give me a link to which posting it's on. I would like to contact him directly and share information about our experiences on the ST. I did try to find it on my own, but had little success. I would appreciate anything you can provide.

Here's the link to post on the main Blackbird site

http://www.bikersoracle.com/blackbird/forum/showthread.php?t=22585

Stu
 
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