Speed handle?

[Larry Fine]

To add:

Relative diameter difference between master and slave cylinders is akin to physical leverage.

There are three variables: The travel, the displacement, and the applied effort.

If you want to alter any one, at least one of the other two must also be changed, or the result must.

 

[DesmoRonin]

Agreed, if.

A lever that is closer to the grip at rest, and thus less travel, also cannot separate the plates as far.


So, what physically different between the OEM lever and the ones causing damage?

If the pivot profile and fulcrum (non-adustable) are the same as OEM, why would the engagement point be any different? If anything, the profile of ASV levers seem to curve out more aggressively than the OEM at equivalent points. Unless you adjust the ASV lever closer to the bar than you would the OEM, why would anything change?

To add:

Relative diameter difference between master and slave cylinders is akin to physical leverage.

There are three variables: The travel, the displacement, and the applied effort.

If you want to alter any one, at least one of the other two must also be changed, or the result must.

Neither cylinder is being changed, no?

Unless the rider is improperly using the clutch due to increased effort, that is not an applicable variable in this case.

As mentioned previously, unless the rider is adjusting the lever closer to the grip to effectively change the relative actuation point, ditto.

So what's left?

 

[SMSW]

You guys, @Larry Fine and @DesmoRonin are avoiding the main issue that Larry picked up in his post #16, "I believe he's referring to leverage and travel. A clutch lever that is easier to pull, as a matter of physics, cannot separate the plates as far, unless the lever can travel farther." All this discussion without a few basic facts is not going to answer the question.

It is my understanding that the only change in the listed ST1300 was installing that aftermarket (what I will call a) compound lever clutch handle. Instead of getting into piston diameters and master cylinders, it would be relatively easy to do some measuring and compare moment arms and travel of the lever against the OEM piston. Going a step to further simplify, why do any calculating at all? Measure the distance both levers will move the rod pressing against the piston. Whichever moves the stock piston more separates the clutch plates to a greater degree.

@aniwack stated he has been changing clutch packs on bikes with (an assumption) the pictured compound clutch lever. That does not mean that the owners of those bikes fully disengaged the clutch before shifting. It may simply mean that an easier to pull lever results in some riders not bothering to squeeze the handle all the way to the grip.

@DesmoRonin's experience w/ a history of trouble free shifting (another assumption (is he a purveyor or a regular mechanic like @aniwack?)) cannot be ignored either. He said, "I change out more levers in a year than most riders touch in a lifetime, and I've never found this to be an issue. Perhaps there is a particular issue with this bike/combination? I've been wrong before..." That second to last sentence is telling. I cannot believe he has been changing out more levers in a year on ST's than most riders touch in a lifetime.

 

[DesmoRonin]

You guys, @Larry Fine and @DesmoRonin are avoiding the main issue that Larry picked up in his post #16, "I believe he's referring to leverage and travel. A clutch lever that is easier to pull, as a matter of physics, cannot separate the plates as far, unless the lever can travel farther." All this discussion without a few basic facts is not going to answer the question.

It is my understanding that the only change in the listed ST1300 was installing that aftermarket (what I will call a) compound lever clutch handle. Instead of getting into piston diameters and master cylinders, it would be relatively easy to do some measuring and compare moment arms and travel of the lever against the OEM piston. Going a step to further simplify, why do any calculating at all? Measure the distance both levers will move the rod pressing against the piston. Whichever moves the stock piston more separates the clutch plates to a greater degree.

@aniwack stated he has been changing clutch packs on bikes with (an assumption) the pictured compound clutch lever. That does not mean that the owners of those bikes fully disengaged the clutch before shifting. It may simply mean that an easier to pull lever results in some riders not bothering to squeeze the handle all the way to the grip.

@DesmoRonin's experience w/ a history of trouble free shifting (another assumption (is he a purveyor or a regular mechanic like @aniwack?)) cannot be ignored either. He said, "I change out more levers in a year than most riders touch in a lifetime, and I've never found this to be an issue. Perhaps there is a particular issue with this bike/combination? I've been wrong before..." That second to last sentence is telling. I cannot believe he has been changing out more levers in a year on ST's than most riders touch in a lifetime.

Did I say ST's?

I'm here as an enthusiast who does not have much experience with ST's, mo more, no less. I'm seeking answers due to my lack of experience this platform, not to challenge the assertions of others. But to clarify, I'm a former dealer for ASV Innovations (the product pictured), designed, distributed and sold my own levers (albeit cable clutch on Yamaha YZF-R6/R1), current Brembo dealer for both race and street products including MC's, and former full-time wrench for Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki (limited), and BMW (limited), non-master mechanic, ex-roadracer, and current part time pit crew for a bunch of newbie racers who include family and friends. I generally don't speak in superlatives, and perhaps I'm more purveyor than regular mechanic since I don't do it full time, and it is a perishable skill and I primarily work on performance bikes. Believe what you want, but I do stand by what I said without exaggeration. Perhaps you need to stop making assumptions? #cheers

 

[Igofar]

Funny how everyone is totally overthinking all this.
Since John has been under my wing for a few years, he is starting to see much of the “escort bike” stupidity and damage.
I’m pretty sure his comment was sarcastic in nature, and not put out there to over analyze it.
Most of the problems with clutch damage comes from folks that but these cheap short levers, and with them, the pushrods are sometimes shorter than OEM ones and don’t fit or work correctly, causing damage by slipping or riding the clutch.
I’ve seen many with stupid linkage that allowed the rod to move around a lot as well.
Another typical type of damage is the poor fitting aftermarket pushrods or bushings wear deeper holes in the bushings, not allowing the correct pressure.
So instead of trying to figure out if your glass is half empty, or half full, just drink what you have then go ride.

 

[Larry Fine]

Please understand that, when I engage in discussions like this one and, for another example, the spring-orientation thread, my points are made from a theoretical, all-other-things-being-equal position, and not from experience with a specific model or situation.

 

[DesmoRonin]

Funny how everyone is totally overthinking all this.
Since John has been under my wing for a few years, he is starting to see much of the “escort bike” stupidity and damage.
I’m pretty sure his comment was sarcastic in nature, and not put out there to over analyze it.
Most of the problems with clutch damage comes from folks that but these cheap short levers, and with them, the pushrods are sometimes shorter than OEM ones and don’t fit or work correctly, causing damage by slipping or riding the clutch.
I’ve seen many with stupid linkage that allowed the rod to move around a lot as well.
Another typical type of damage is the poor fitting aftermarket pushrods or bushings wear deeper holes in the bushings, not allowing the correct pressure.
So instead of trying to figure out if your glass is half empty, or half full, just drink what you have then go ride.

Agreed, though I don't know who John is. And therein lies the problem -- the inability of a newcomer like me to understand the reliability or the authenticity of the source. Hence my questions based on experience, not conjecture, BTW. The internet is a dangerous place -- without vetting the information source/background. it's just as easy to propagate inaccurate information as easy as it is to spread legitimately helpful information. And while the search function can be your friend, it can also be a detriment if the search isn't deep enough or you're not a longtime regular who knows the "good ol' guys." The number of posts or duration of membership is not a good metric for accuracy of information. Respectfully, please take this from a decade-long Super Moderator of one of larger VerticalScope forums when forums were actually a big thing. This is simply a small scale version of the issues I faced weekly.

In your example, ASV is not one of the cheap, knock-off, or poorly designed levers you mentioned. Perhaps John did not know this when he made his generalized comment, sarcastic or not. I have worked on more than a few bikes with the type of lever you have described, and I have ended up having to replace them 99% of the time. It's one of the reasons I ended up producing my own aftermarket lever (actually for another small company that was previously producing cheap knock off levers in China) and spend a lot of time educating the younger social media generation about things my group learned the hard way. And so that i don't have more shade assumptions thrown my way, I stopped selling ASV because I didn't like the way they did business with smaller vendors, not because they make an inferior product. Their C5 levers are quite good and come with a industry leading warranty.

My glass is actually completely full, and I prefer to share my drink with those who need or want it. There's plenty more if required. Thanks for the lesson

 

[DesmoRonin]

Please understand that, when I engage in discussions like this one and, for another example, the spring-orientation thread, my points are made from a theoretical, all-other-things-being-equal position, and not from experience with a specific model or situation.

Information shared is information shared. I respect and appreciate your input whether I agree or disagree. At the risk of being a braggart, I do have a decent amount of experience in both examples, but I'm not so ignorant or stubborn to think that I cannot learn something valuable from another member, theoretical or experiential. #cheers

 

[ST1100Y]

What is a "speed handle", how do I know if the aftermarket handle on my ST is a "speed handle" or not.

Do they come with a different master cylinder to generate less hydraulic pressure than OEM's?

Thanks.

@aniwack is likely referring to pattern stuff like this here:

Brake lever and clutch lever compatible with Honda Pan European ST 1300 02-16 V-Trec lever Set short or long

Note: This product is a complete lever set with clutch and brake lever. You can also purchase this clutch lever and brake lever separately from us.Long Version: 17,5cmShort Version: 14,5cmExtremely light and resistantFully milled of 6061-T6 aluminiumReady to mount, adaptors included6-fold...

www.motea.com

IMO lotsa bling-bling of unclear quality...
Frequent inspection, cleaning, lubrication and replacement of worn parts do way more...

 

[MidLife]

....... ASV is not one of the cheap, knock-off, or poorly designed levers you mentioned. ..

Thanks for helping here.

What do I need to look for to make sure the aftermarket lever on my ST is adequate?

 

[Andrew Shadow]

What do I need to look for to make sure the aftermarket lever on my ST is adequate?

Not attempting to be a smart alic at all, just an observation for you to consider.

Unless I had a physical limitation that mandated a different lever, and if I had reservations about the aftermarket one that I have, I would just replace it with an OEM lever and forget about it. They can be had reasonably priced.

If you want an adjustable one you can get a VFR lever that is adjustable but in every other respect that matters for fit and function is the same as the OEM.

Either option eliminates any concerns about proper clutch activation insofar as the lever is concerned.

 

[MidLife]

.....if I had reservations about the aftermarket one that I have, I would just replace it with an OEM lever and forget about it.....

Yes. But I had absolutely no reservation about this lever until I saw the post. The clutch seems to be activated as it should. Just want to make sure I am not missing something that could cost me a clutch down the road.

But as the Tucson Oracle hinted, the post may have been referring to straight clutch abuse rather than the lever itself. Looks like we'll never know.

On the other hand(le).....the OEM lever is a better fit for me than the current aftermarket on the bike, so long run, I might go your suggested route anyway!

 

[Andrew Shadow]

In my experience the OEM levers are usually longer than the jobber ones. As long as your fingers are long enough to comfortably reach the OEM lever that will be further away from the grip, because it is longer, it results in an easier pull. If the increased distance is a problem, the adjustable VFR clutch lever can solve that issue. Just be careful not to adjust it so that the lever activated clutch switch no longer switches.

 

[OldMcClelland]

as the Tucson Oracle hinted

love it!

 

[MidLife]

If the increased distance is a problem....

Not an issue. Been happily and comfortably pulling on an OEM for 20 years on an 03. Aftermarket is on the newer recent replacement.

 

[sirbike]

Correct, I "misspoke"... less line pressure.

Let’s think about that.
The clutch springs rate determine the line pressure necessary to achieve a given distance of spring compression, regardless of master and slave piston sizes or clutch lever geometry.
I say this in an exercise of clarity.

Regarding clutch levers myself, I perceive the VFR lever as easier to pull because it is less of a reach when adjusted so. Even though it crowds the pinky finger a bit, something that counters the full advantage of the shorter reach. The net effect is that I prefer using the VFR lever adjusted even closer than oem by way of a little grinding.
The issue to consider, does this set up push enough volume to disengage the clutch plates enough to avoid additional wear or at least wear of concern?
My data point for that is, I have ridden several ST1100 and ST1300 over 30,000-40,000 miles each with VFR levers that had been installed on bikes at 40,000 to 55,000 miles.

Another point. I bought a knockoff of stock lever. It had a shorter length lever that negated some of the comfort of having a shorter reach.
It had clutch safety switch actuation that limited the reach range.
It started wearing out unacceptably within 10,000 miles.

 

[DesmoRonin]

Thanks for helping here.

What do I need to look for to make sure the aftermarket lever on my ST is adequate?

I seem to be stepping on the toes of some of the OG members here (unintentionally for sure!), so respectfully, I think it' s better that I let the old boys' club members respond first. If you don't get the answer you seek, I'm a PM or phone call away. To be fair, different (usually cheap knockoffs) aftermarket levers can have different areas of concern, including some of the things already mentioned here, such as improper bushing size, actuation method/pin length, moment, etc. It will really depend on the lever you use. I tend not to use or recommend Chinese knockoffs for this reason... not all of them are bad, but I've had enough bad experiences with them that I now only use "tested" product from reputable brands (mostly USA, Japan, and Europe).

I understand your concern and feel you are smart for having it. Again, I'll let the experts answer first, but I will share one of the things I do to my (hydraulic clutch) bikes. Disclosure for any haters, lol: NO ST1300, several wet and dry clutch Ducati's, older Hondas, and a few older Yamahas, Kawasaki's and KTM's. I will typically bleed or replace the hydraulic fluid and check the level. I've never seen it on the clutch side as the fluid doesn't get hot, but I've seen thermal expansion on the brake side cause brake drag or even lock from setting the level too high. Again, I have zero experience with this on the clutch MC, but if I see bubbles during bleeding, maybe the clutch isn't disengaging as well as I thought it was. Small details, but that is where I typically start, especially if I don't want take the clutch cover off and measure plates.

FWIW, I'm generally a "form follows function" kind of guy, and I didn't know that replacing levers on ST's was a thing

 

[DesmoRonin]

Let’s think about that.
The clutch springs rate determine the line pressure necessary to achieve a given distance of spring compression, regardless of master and slave piston sizes or clutch lever geometry.
I say this in an exercise of clarity.

Regarding clutch levers myself, I perceive the VFR lever as easier to pull because it is less of a reach when adjusted so. Even though it crowds the pinky finger a bit, something that counters the full advantage of the shorter reach. The net effect is that I prefer using the VFR lever adjusted even closer than oem by way of a little grinding.
The issue to consider, does this set up push enough volume to disengage the clutch plates enough to avoid additional wear or at least wear of concern?
My data point for that is, I have ridden several ST1100 and ST1300 over 30,000-40,000 miles each with VFR levers that had been installed on bikes at 40,000 to 55,000 miles.

Another point. I bought a knockoff of stock lever. It had a shorter length lever that negated some of the comfort of having a shorter reach.
It had clutch safety switch actuation that limited the reach range.
It started wearing out unacceptably within 10,000 miles.

Thank you for sharing #cheers

I understand your point about the spring rate, however, most people (assumption) do not change their pressure plate springs, and if they do, it's for stiffer springs, not lighter. Is this not the case with the ST's? (I have no idea) Ducati's have a notoriously hard clutch pull... the common solution is to change the slave cylinder and in some cases, the radial M/C, but similarly not the spring pressure.

I have zero issue with my VFR levers... on my VFR's, lol. I did not know this was a ST hack. I may even have some spare levers hanging around to try for shits and giggles. But my data point would be a little different. I would remove the clutch cover and measure displacements, if possible.

Assuming the knockoff you bought mirrored the stock lever in all pertinent measurements, what did you find to be the primary factor causing the premature wear?

 

[MidLife]

I'm a PM or phone call away.

Thanks. I'll send you a picture for your comments when I get my ride back from the shop. Bad time of the year for shop work, with everybody trying to restart their garage queens, so it may be a few weeks from now.

I have no real issues with the lever, seems to engage the clutch and switch as it should. However, a longer lever, like the OEM, makes it less touchy to modulate the clutch in the friction zone for slow maneuvering.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

I seem to be stepping on the toes of some of the OG members here (unintentionally for sure!), so respectfully, I think it' s better that I let the old boys' club members respond first. If you don't get the answer you seek, I'm a PM or phone call away.

I, for one, object. If you answer questions via PM one person learns. If you answer on the forum all who want to learn do. You have knowledge and experience we can benefit from, which is one of the primary attributes of this forum.

If posts are devoid of personal attacks there is no reason for anyone to be ticked off at an opportunity to learn. If they are that is their issue.