Pan Weave

[dduelin]

The Weave isn't a wobble or a tank slapper. It's not the "happy feet" light front end the ST has in turbulence or gusty winds. It doesn't originate from an oscillation, damped or undamped, from the forks. It is a damped oscillation about the longitudinal axis that increases in magnitude and frequency with corresponding increases in speed. It does not suddenly go into a high speed tank slapper. I don't think my '05 ever weaved under 115 mph and sometimes not until over 125 and sometimes, most of the time, never. But when it did the onset is a gentle back and forth combined roll and yaw motions almost like the ST was 'swimming'. Go faster and it gets bigger in magnitude but never deteriorating into uncontrollable fork oscillations.

The Pan Weave was explored and documented in a series of instrumented tests done by Ride magazine. You can ride a steady high speeds for miles and miles in the weave with your hands off the bars. I did this to prove to myself it wasn't unconscious movement of the rider's shoulders or arms feeding steering inputs into the forks like some of us theorized.

 

[Chris09]

[edited] One of the aspects that I notice about the ST is that one can just go along for the ride; I really don't think it handles so much worse than anything else in soft terrain in so much as that the rider has to first wake up. I've encountered substantial cross winds at probably 65 mph that would have affected me on smaller bikes but had almost no effect on the ST.
On the rare occassions where I've had the bike at high speed I've noticed the rear does lighten up on deceleration almost as though you have to hold it in place a bit but nothing unexpected.
If you're able to ride in and ride out of the weave, for example at 125 and 115, what might one draw from reports where the bike has gained [not a pun] so much weave [or wobble or worse] gotten out of control quickly and crashed. Then where an attempt to follow up by a second individual fully prepared and fit for the task has produced similar result to a loss of control.
My sense is that what probably occured in the first fatality was wobble.

 

[billo]

One of the aspects that I notice about the ST is that one can just go along for the ride; I really don't think it handles so much worse than anything else in soft terrain in so much as that the rider has to first wake up. It's just the sort of bike where it's easy to just go along for the ride.
Since I have a vested interest, and at the risk of drawing any ire I'll pose a hypothetical question; if you're able to ride in and ride out of the weave, for example at 125 and 115, what might one draw from reports where the bike has gained [not a pun] so much weave [or wobble or worse] gotten out of control quickly and where an attempt to follow up by an individual fully prepared and fit for the task has produced similar result to a loss of control.
My sense is that what probably occured in the first fatality was wobble.

Maybe so.
It caught me off guard. Acceleration to 115 happened quicker than the weave. On throttle shut down it immediately began taking me from on side of the lane to the other in under just a second, so not a tank slapper by any means. The scary part was an upcoming bend (hence the shut down). Leaning into the weave didn't seem like an option at the time. I can see someone crashing under the same circumstances with a tighter curve ahead.
Further tests showed the bike beginning to slowly weave under 90.

 

[Chris09]

[edited] One of the accounts betrays two broken wrists; if that occured prior to the loss of control it would suggest fairly powerful shaking about the steering head which seems more like wobble.
I wonder if in some instances a situation that begins as weave could go from bad to worse because of how a rider responds. Maybe application of the brakes makes enough of a shift in the centre of gravity to effect a second problem. As well, actual braking forces between front and rear and from bike to bike must vary and so on.
Regardless of intial rear suspension settings and damping, change in torsion must also change the pitch of the bike when 80 or 90 ft/lbs are applied. I would guess it could add slightly at least to lifting the rear of the bike.
Like all so called accidents, most can be reduced to a sequence of unfortunate events; the take away is make sure everything is up to snuff.

 

[hardwareace]

I've put on about 23,000 miles on a 2019 GW Tour manual I bought with around 5,000 miles on it. I love the bike but I also miss having a HD in my garage to take out for bike nights and the like with other HD riding friends. I'm 68 and love riding on the lonely country roads where I live in Southeastern Wisconsin. I'm considering trading (or selling myself most likely) in my GW and getting a sports tourer and an older HD. Yesterday, I took a look at a 2010 ST1300 with 9,500 miles that seems to be in great shape. Black, Corbin seat, non-oem top box, Delkevic exhaust and a few strange looking crash bars made by T-rex racing - they seem to be made for police bikes. The bike itself does not come back as a former PD bike - vin is JH2SC5105AK800236. While I know it's not the equal of my GW, I think it'll check most of the boxes that are important to me - comfortable, quick enough and some storage space for grocery shopping or an overnight trip or two. My wife no longer rides with me as she has developed lower back problems. I also have my eye on a 2016 HD Low Rider with around 11,000 miles although another alternative the dealer has is a 2016 HD Switchback that at least comes with detachable hard side bags and a detachable windscreen. Hard to believe but the Switchback has less than 2,000 miles - a garage queen for sure. The dealer is asking $5,500 for the ST while the Low Rider and Switchback are $7,699 and $7,899. My 2019 GW has close to 29,000 miles and always maintained at a Honda dealer with no drops or anything ever. Option are a Honda Rider backrest, Honda bag liners and a taller-wider California Scientific shield and I do have the original in mint condition. Tires have been changed twice and I have around 4,000 on the current set. I figure I should be able to get $15,000 fairly easily if I sell it myself and the dealer is a thief as most are and off the top of his head said he'd give me around $12,500 - this while we were standing in front of a 2019 GW they had for $17,500 that the placard said had a re-welded frame! Anyway, any comments on the proposed trade would be appreciated. Would I regret selling the GW. I got tossed off a 1978 Kawi KZ650 when I ran it out to near full speed and saw an upcoming copper and let go of the throttle entirely - it overloaded the front end and all I recall is the front end going violently right then left before it tossed me off. Luckily - I slid on my left hip and never flipped or rolled. Nice hockey puck deep wound on my hip but it wasn't "my time" is the best explanation. I don't go over 110 any longer so I'm not worried about the high-speed weave problems as much as the fact that I don't like the idea of wrestling with the bike every time I pass or follow a semi-truck. Appreciate any thoughts about any of what I discussed. Thanks.

 

[Al st1100]

Some have traded the st for a wing not visa-versa. No abs and parts are getting harder to find. Keep the wing or, IMO, get the R1200rt there, good deal.

 

[hardwareace]

Some have traded the st for a wing not visa-versa. No abs and parts are getting harder to find. Keep the wing or, IMO, get the R1200rt there, good deal.

Thanks for the comments. I guess I wasn't clear - I love the GW - the point of me doing anything is to have two bikes instead of one and probably a few bucks in my wallet at the same time for an accessory or two. I would have the ST1300 AND one of the two HD's I mentioned. Different strokes but I'll take my GW over a BMW for reliability as well as fit concerns - the GW tank hits you about your belly button while sitting on most BMW's has the tank much further up - just don't like reaching around the tall tank. Thanks.

 

[ST1100Y]

It felt like the front end was coming up and I could see how it could turn into a 'tank slapper' pretty quickly.
From what I can tell, it varies from ST1300 to ST1300, depending on load, suspension settings, etc.

Friend of mine (the one I share utilities of the bike shop with and help/assist servicing his bikes) has a silver '07(?) or '08(?) ST1300.
Fully upgraded Wilbers suspension front and rear, which brought some remedy to the wave issue, but never fully cured it...
In his observation is it the combination of an aerodynamic design flaw with borderline suspension geometric... and it starts in the front end...
That the 1300 fairing is soft and wobbly to the touch is quite obvious (in comparison the 1100 Tupperware feels like an APC...), even the windscreen supports can be bend and twisted with ease, so it wouldn't astonish me if that thing starts to "pump" in some ways once the air-flow pressure/turbulence exceeds a critical thresh-hold, which then upsets the frame, sending it into a vibration circle, leading into that "shark-tailing" experienced...
But also he says that its in a speed range where its basically neglect-able due to legal reasons...
Max on AuSTrian m/ways are 130kph/80mph... the occasional 180kph/112mph are no issue...
The only areas to actually exceed 240kph/150mph would be some sections on german m/ways... which are dull and boring to begin with...
So in regular daily use this topic isn't an issue... at all...