Is the classic sport-touring motorcycle doomed to extinction?

Why? That NT1100 is what I rate as "living room floor ADV bike", plagued with gizmos...
2-cyl, chain, no tip over protection, lacks weather protection, dazzling LED headlights, insectoid appearance, proprietary workshop only service, switch-pods like game-controllers, TFD too bright, required WiFi connection, emitting RF-radiation on levels that it blows away any GPS reception...

Yeah... I would like to fumble on those in heavy weather with thick, insulated, GoreTex winter-gloves... not...
I'm not trying to argue. You might think of this as more of passing on personal experience. But first, I'm all for the ST1100 and ST1300. If you don't want all the electronic gizmos, there's nothing wrong with them at all. They are great bikes. And I think it is the smart rider who buys one and doesn't get caught up in all the eye candy as the reason for passing on them.

I'll take it item by item.
  • Not sure what you mean by "living room floor ADV bike", but the ADV style does have advantages ergonomically. The seating position on my bike is pretty much upright with just the slightest forward lean. Enough forward lean to keep your spine from absorbing all the bumps in the road, and not so much that your wrists and hands take a beating. I may get foam hand grips some day, but so far I haven't felt I needed them. And I have about 10K miles on the XR in the last year...with two months of down time for foot surgery. That ADV style riding position is really sweet. :)
  • The gizmos...you can use what you want and disregard the rest. The cruise control is handier than I thought it would be. I have a hard time holding the speed down, so in the areas locally where speed traps are prevalent, I just set the cruise control and quit worrying about going too fast. The Dynamic ABS and Traction Control are gizmos that I want just-in-case, but I don't intend to ever ride so I'm depending on them. My XR will tell me things like my coolant temperature, tire pressure, average mpg and remaining range. A lot of us add mods on our bikes to provide that info. In this case, they are built in. Heated grips are nice if you ride year around as I do.
  • Two-cylinder engine. The only four cylinder engines I've had are in cars. My VW Beetle had a 1300 cc engine. If my parallel twin engine vibrated a lot, I'd say it was a negative, but not all twins are bad.
  • Chain. Oh my gosh, my bike has a chain!...as do almost all new motorcycles. It hasn't been a big deal at all. I have yet to adjust mine. Keeping it lubed is a no-brainer with the oiler I purchased for about $30. On all the trips I made last summer, I don't remember ever sitting on the ground cleaning my chain. And people say that chain if kept clean and lubed, will last about 35K.
  • Tip over protection. I bought crash bars for a couple hundred. Yes, they aren't built-in, but they are available. That to me, is a huge plus for Honda, but there's a workaround for other bikes.
  • Weather protection. I'll combine that with the "insectoid appearance" comment. I think the beak on ADV bikes is dumb, but otherwise the appearance on these bikes was driven by aerodynamics. My XR cuts through the air better than my older F800GT did...and that was really decent. Cross-winds are not an issue on the insectoid XR, and I bet it is the same on the NT1100 and others. It simply works and keeps the rain and cold off me.
  • LED headlights. How many of us add auxiliary lights to make up for our inadequate halogen lights? Nuff said.
  • Proprietary workshop service. It's not really an issue. On my F800GT, which was a 2014, I did just routine maintenance; oil & filter changes, tires, brakes. The bike just worked, mile after mile. I don't expect my newer XR to be any different I did buy a GS-911 to reset the maintenance interval, but that was all I needed it for. It was kinda cool to hook it up to my laptop and feel like a "real" mechanic. :) But other than the rear wheel bearing that failed at the end of my time with it, I never needed a shop manual. Everything could be found online. I did go to an independent mechanic for the valve checks. That was because it was more work than I wanted to bother with, not because I couldn't do it. On most of these bikes, you can buy service manuals or the equivalent. Even on my current BMW, I found a place to download a service manual.
  • The switches...eh, some are better laid out than others. I think BMWs switches and TFT display are possibly the best. They were the first on the market (I think) and probably filed patents to stay ahead of the competition. I was amazed at how logically the TFT screen on my XR was laid out and how easy it was to find what you wanted without being overly distracted. The others may not be as good, but once you get used to them, I'll be you find them just fine too.
  • TFD or TFT...there's a brightness setting you can make on it. I'm sure all the other manufacturers have one too. The nice part about it, is you can see it clearly in the daytime and in bright sun light. And at night, they automatically adjust.
  • Required Wi-Fi connection? Mine doesn't have it. It'll connect to your phone using BT, but that's it. If I decide not to connect my phone to the bike, I just loose the ability to use the bike's display to make phone calls or play music. A "gizmo" that can be ignored if you don't want it. The XR does have a screen that'll give you GPS directions, but it uses the phone's GPS transmitter. I rarely use it, and consider it a backup to my Garmin Zumo XT.

    I'll add one more thought. BMW really wants you to use their Connected App. It requires BT and your phone's GPS tracking enabled all the time. Even in the middle of the night, with the program turned off, it'll check your location. I don't use it. I figure BMW is tracking my location and selling my information...even though they say they aren't. So I just don't use the Connected app, 99% of the time.

  • RF-radiation. ??? The only thing that comes to mind, is the radar being offered on some bikes interfering with your radar detector. I used the Garmin GPS and Uniden radar detector for most of those 10,000 miles and never encountered that.
Again, I think the ST and the others like the Concours and FJR are excellent bikes. They used to be my dream bikes. What I really wanted, but could never afford. I eagerly read everything that came out about them, especially the comparison reviews. Then I did a test ride on a BMW F800GT and that changed my mind. 470 lbs, wet weight. And yet, I found on the test ride that it did better in the turbulence I encountered on the freeway from trucks. That really raised my eyebrows! I had a Honda NT700V, the baby brother of all the STs and the new NT1100. It did great on all the features you look for on a sport-touring bike...but this BMW with a hundred pounds less weight and 50% more horsepower did better!?!?! It made me rethink my whole concept of what I really wanted on a sport-touring bike. I told my wife before my post-retirement ride that I might find the GT wasn't suitable for what I wanted to do, which was long distance riding. It turns out, it was perfect. I never once wished I had a different (read heavier) bike.

And...I realized that I had the bike for when I got older and couldn't handle the weight.

Smart riders that know enough to not follow all the latest and greatest trends, will buy bikes like the STs. But there are alternatives as well.

Chris
 
There are lots of riders who use ADV bikes for sport touring, as suitable alternatives.
Your XR, the GS / GSA, and Vstroms come to mind, as well as the Honda Africa Twin.
The ergos / seating position, tons of luggage options, weather protection, cruise control, heated grips and seats are attractions, and some riders even like all the electronic gadgetry.
As you noted, the preferred shaft drive that some desire, isn't a deal killer necessarily.
The GSA even includes the larger tank for fewer fuel stops.
 
Daboo does that make me not a "smart rider" for buying the Mandello? :p

Other than that I agree whit a lot of what you said. Smaller lighter and in my case slightly more upright works. I looked very hard at the Moto Guzzi V85TT which is even smaller than the V100 Mandello but I prefer the sport touring style over the Adv touring style.
 
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It's hard to sell a $30K bike when you sell a $10K bike that does 90% of what the expensive one does.
Honda, BMW, and others don't seem to have problems selling $30k bikes. Maybe you meant to say It's hard for some riders to spend the money when they perceive a $10k bike does 90% of what more expensive ones do?
 
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It's officially a sport tourer now. Bags and heated grips are installed. The bags are deceptively big even though they don't look big on the bike. Thank you Moto Guzzi for keeping the shaft drive sport tourer alive and well. Not only that but at 535lbs wet that's cool. I know I know that doesn't include the bags.
 
Why? That NT1100 is what I rate as "living room floor ADV bike", plagued with gizmos...
2-cyl, chain, no tip over protection, lacks weather protection, dazzling LED headlights, insectoid appearance, proprietary workshop only service, switch-pods like game-controllers, TFD too bright, required WiFi connection, emitting RF-radiation on levels that it blows away any GPS reception...


Yeah... I would like to fumble on those in heavy weather with thick, insulated, GoreTex winter-gloves... not...
Tom's right
 
Daboo does that make me not a "smart rider" for buying the Mandello? :p

Other than that I agree whit a lot of what you said. Smaller lighter and in my case slightly more upright works. I looked very hard at the Moto Guzzi V85TT which is even smaller than the V100 Mandello but I prefer the sport touring style over the Adv touring style.
Yes...and no. ;) Are you? :D Yours is the only opinion that matters. :)
Put it this way: It's hard for me to spend it.
I used to call myself "cheap". My squadron commander corrected me and said, "No, you're frugal".

I look at owners of the ST1100/ST1300 and on the Kawasaki side, the C10 and C14, as "smart". It always amazes me that people fall for what the marketing department folks say. The ST1100 and C10 used to be the cream of the crop for "sport-touring" bikes. Bikes that could let you cross states to have lunch with a friend. Bikes made to munch the miles away effortlessly...and still be fun to ride on a twisty road. Then the ST1300 and C14 came out, and all of a sudden, what was once the cream of the crop, became less than satisfactory. Both of those newer models were "better", but there was nothing "wrong" with the older model. Clement Salvadori owned a ST1100 and I'm sure he could get just about any motorcycle he wanted. But he chose that one, He wrote an article on one in 2022 that you may like to read.

These bikes and the FJR models were the epitome of all-day riding...till they weren't. The marketing folks still had to make a living, so changes were made to motorcycles. Much like mini-vans were designed to carry a bunch of kids to field trips, and all of a sudden the mini-van wasn't complete unless it had a DVD player and screens for the kids to numb their minds. Did that make the older mini-van obsolete? What did you buy those for??? --Oh!, to move lots of kids.

And so to me the "smart" riders are those that can see past the extras to what really makes a sport-touring bike. Do I need cruise control? Eh...it's nice, but a throttle lock did me just fine across tens of thousands of miles. Even more so, do I "need" all the electronic aids of new motorcycles? Not really. What drove me to sport-touring was not the ability of my bike to tell me how far over I was leaning on that last run through the corners...but the ability to do just that and put a grin on my face.

Just because the ST1100 and ST1300 are "old" and Honda has chosen not to keep producing them, doesn't make them any less of an excellent sport-touring bike. They were the cream of the crop when they were new, and to me smart riders appreciate them for what they are. And for the frugal rider, they are a steal at the prices you can buy one for now.

Chris
 
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It's officially a sport tourer now. Bags and heated grips are installed. The bags are deceptively big even though they don't look big on the bike. Thank you Moto Guzzi for keeping the shaft drive sport tourer alive and well. Not only that but at 535lbs wet that's cool. I know I know that doesn't include the bags.
That looks great Donk.
 
The ST1100 and C10 used to be the cream of the crop for "sport-touring" bikes. Bikes that could let you cross states to have lunch with a friend. Bikes made to munch the miles away effortlessly...and still be fun to ride on a twisty road...
These bikes and the FJR models were the epitome of all-day riding...till they weren't.
Revisionist history, it was and is BMW not Honda or Yamaha that historically epitomized all day sport touring. ;)

The Honda ST line was way later than both R and K sport touring bikes. It can be argued that the ST was an answer to BMW's flopped 4 (flying brick) sport tourer, the K100RT/LT/RS line, which preceeded the ST by almost 10 years (1983-92).

Tom

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Revisionist history, it was and is BMW not Honda or Yamaha that historically epitomized all day sport touring. ;)

The Honda ST line was way later than both R and K sport touring bikes. It can be argued that the ST was just an answer to BMW's flopped 4 (flying brick) sport tourer the K100RT/LT/RS line which preceeded the ST by almost 10 years (1983-92).

I'd agree that BMW was earlier to implement the sport-touring genre, but having ridden the K100 I'd argue that they were never the best. While they may have arrived a few years late, H/K/Y did a good job of expanding the choices in the sport-touring market, and for the better IMO.
 
Daboo you could argue the same about BMW airhead or pre water cooled RT riders. They stick with what they like and feel no need to have the latest or greatest. I don't think it's brand specific it's finding a bike that you're passionate about and sticking with it. In my case I have wanted a Moto Guzzi since the "78 LeMans and have finally got one. Doubt I'll be trading it for anything or "upgrading" any time soon, hopefully never. There are plenty of people who feel the same about their old Guzzi, they have no interest in upgrading they just ride the heck out of the bike they enjoy.
 
@Donk - I wasn't trying to knock what you just bought. Moto Guzzi's are great bikes. :) Heck, I just bought a new BMW. My needs just weren't met by the H/K/Y sport-touring bikes. As yours. I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with these old, ancient sport-touring machines that the marketing folks are telling us are obsolete...but definitely aren't.

Chris
 
It's got an agressive stance and it pits the rider slightly downward [or so it seems to me]. Which, in my opinion, if you can still fog a mirror, might not be a bad thing.
The GPZ 550 was a little ridiculous [for a street bike] too at the time.
 
It's all about "image"...

Back in the day the serious, full faired touring motorcycles, be it the mentioned LT series, the ST or the (first gen) Triumph Trophy where always associated with the rider being something like an architect, lawyer, bank branch manager, middle aged, wealthy, at least upper middle class, dull, married, 2~3 kids... hence "old man's bike"... (me with 28 on an ST was a exotic novelty, turns out it still is...)
Youth: the CBRGSXers... the intrepid street warriors of the urban world...
Wanna be outdoorsy, shirt-sleeved, but still urban: a GS... (hilarious when folks in suit, tie and loafers ride those to the office...)
Hardcore: KTM, XT, Tènèrè, Africa Twin or at least the little sister: a TransAlp ...
Wanna pretend the outlaw in pirate's costume: cruiser... (these days not PC anymore...)
(GW were and still are a niche... wouldn't know how to corner, filter or park such an aircraft carrier... in my environment as useful as an F350 crew-cab dually...)

Then folks started to build "fun bikes", like a Honda Dominator 500 with smaller front wheel, upside down forks and street tires...
KTM and others jumped the trend... the "Motard" was born... even Husquarna wrote black numbers again...
Once this gained more traction and followers, bikes like the Varadero, Crossrunner, Crosstourer, VStrom, etc... appeared (all ballroom ADV bikes, not meat nor fish); that outdoorsy trend is still ongoing... they even relaunched the AfricaTwin and TransAlp over it...

And during all of the above stages, the average annual mileage on motorcycles declined, to below 2000km/anno (1250 in medieval...)
Thus motorcycles with 4~5 years, haven't even seen their first oil change... (imagine the acid content in the case...)
 
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It's all about "image"...

Back in the day the serious, full faired touring motorcycles, be it the mentioned LT series, the ST or the (first gen) Triumph Trophy where always associated with the rider being something like an architect, lawyer, bank branch manager, middle aged, wealthy, at least upper middle class, dull, married, 2~3 kids... hence "old man's bike"... (me with 28 on an ST was a exotic novelty, turns out it still is...)
Youth: the CBRGSXers... the intrepid street warriors of the urban world...
Wanna be outdoorsy, shirt-sleeved, but still urban: a GS... (hilarious when folks in suit, tie and loafers ride those to the office...)
Hardcore: KTM, XT, Tènèrè, Africa Twin or at least the little sister: a TransAlp ...
Wanna pretend the outlaw in pirate's costume: cruiser... (these days not PC anymore...)
(GW were and still are a nice... wouldn't know how to corner, filter or park such an aircraft carrier... in my environment as useful as an F350 crew-cab dually...)

Then folks started to build "fun bikes", like a Honda Dominator 500 with smaller front wheel, upside down forks and and street tires...
KTM and others jumped the trend... the "Motard" was born... even Husquarna wrote black numbers again...
Once this gained more traction and followers, bikes like the Varadero, Crossrunner, Crosstourer, VStrom, etc... appeared (all ballroom ADV bikes, not meat nor fish); that outdoorsy trend is still ongoing... they even relaunched the AfricaTwin and TransAlp over it...

And during all of the above stages, the average annual mileage on motorcycles declined, to below 2000km/anno (1250 in medieval...)
Thus motorcycles with 4~5 years, haven't even seen their first oil change... (imagine the acid content in the case...)
When I was stationed in West Germany in the '80s, I was riding my BMW R80RT. Even the Germans asked why I was riding an "old guy's bike".
 
I've just finished my first year of living with an ST with a trip to Scotland. A little over 500 miles just to get there. I have done the same trip on my Bandit 600 so I had something to compare it to. The ST handled the job so much better. Comfy enough for over four hours in the saddle, a 300 mile range if I was brave enough, plenty of luggage space, handled pretty well around the curvy scottish roads and plenty of grunt to overtake with. What's not to like?
For me this is definitely the right bike at the moment. I will never have an adventure bike as I don't really enjoy riding them and I cannot see them being as good as an ST for touring.
I guess most people buying new bikes just want something to brag about in the pub, like the size of their tft screen, or what stupid speed they got up to on their R1. Personally I ride bikes for the sake of riding them, I don't care what anyone else thinks of my bike, and riding an ST means I can ride longer and further.
 

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