Does ATGATT Work

[Upt' North]

That's all why I bought a white helmet the last time I needed one. But I am considering a colored helmet next time... exact same color as my bike. Don't know if that's a great idea but ... I do wear Hi-Viz gear otherwise and my cool weather gloves need replaced this year sometime and Hi-Viz gloves are on the short list.

And also that is the deal. Wearing the gear doesn't really eliminate all chance of injury or worse... BUT wearing the gear DOES very significantly reduce the bodily damages and not wearing the gear usually results in higher chances of more severe damages. Riding is dangerous enough without inviting worse injury by not doing all we can to reduce or eliminate at least some of the danger. Managing the risks is what it's all about.

Your point on Hi-Vis Bob is very relevant and I do feel that it's value is limited when riding a bike. If I was a road worker or Police Officer standing on the road, then yes its value can't be argued against.
From my own experience when they're asleep at the wheel they won't see or hear anything except there own little world. It doesn't matter how visible or noisy you are they just won't notice you.
My own experience is thus,
On hundreds of occasions driving bright white striped XJ6's, with all lights going and wailers blaring. We're talking headlamps modulating, Whelen grille and roof bars, Whelen noise, lots of it, and nothing, you could follow someone for a mile and they would just sit there oblivious at 100 mph + in the outside lane.
On a bike exactly the same, everything going, they wouldn't know if you were up'em. I got taken out by a driver in exactly this way, his response, "I didn't see you"....
Wear what colour helmet you want fella, because a white one will make no difference.
Upt'North.

 

[ad.hom]

Sorry Ray, I have to take exception with your "it'll make no difference."

Sure, it'll make no odds for the many dozy drivers on the roads (or for the ones that are awake but simple don't care). But for the (hopefully) vast majority of drivers that at least make some attempt to look, the helmet colour will indeed make a difference.

I personally ride with a white helmet, black camera and black comm kit mounted to each side, chevrons on the back of the panniers, and most of the time a "POLITE" high-viz jacket. It's about as close to impersonation as I'm prepared to get, and judging by the actions of some drivers, it works. Some bikers even like to gesticulate at me as they overtake.

I'll take those odds, and when my numbers up, my numbers up.

FWIW - studies suggest that the contrast that a yellow/orange helmet provides is actually better than a white one. For anyone interested in reading material / graphs: https://www.headsdontbounce.com/motorcycle-helmets/are-white-motorcycle-helmets-safer/

 

[Upt' North]

Sorry Ray, I have to take exception with your "it'll make no difference."

Sure, it'll make no odds for the many dozy drivers on the roads (or for the ones that are awake but simple don't care). But for the (hopefully) vast majority of drivers that at least make some attempt to look, the helmet colour will indeed make a difference.

I personally ride with a white helmet, black camera and black comm kit mounted to each side, chevrons on the back of the panniers, and most of the time a "POLITE" high-viz jacket. It's about as close to impersonation as I'm prepared to get, and judging by the actions of some drivers, it works. Some bikers even like to gesticulate at me as they overtake.

I'll take those odds, and when my numbers up, my numbers up.

FWIW - studies suggest that the contrast that a yellow/orange helmet provides is actually better than a white one. For anyone interested in reading material / graphs: https://www.headsdontbounce.com/motorcycle-helmets/are-white-motorcycle-helmets-safer/

We pays our money mate, and we take our chances.
But I do disagree and that's from 30 + years of blues and two's.
Those that see you are switched on and will see you anyway. Those that are in there own little dream world will never see you. It's getting worse by the day too.
Two 12 " screens and Apple Play anybody?
Ride for yourself and everybody else and you'll probably get home safe. Probably?
Ray.

 

[ad.hom]

Those that see you are switched on and will see you anyway. Those that are in there own little dream world will never see you. It's getting worse by the day too.

That's my point though, there's a middle ground of drivers. A SMIDSY might happen because someone pulls out without bothering to look. It might also happen because they looked, but didn't "Think Bike" (with all the complexities of judging distance/speed of smaller objects, plus modern A pillars being so large, etc).

In my case, it amuses me when people refuse to overtake me, or when they read what it actually says on my jacket, and display their anger. But heh, at least they've seen me. Does it buy me anything for the dozy drivers? Nope. But there's other tricks in the toolbag to help there (lateral movement when filtering, positioning for their view as well as my own, control of speed, etc).

I do agree that it's getting worse though.

 

[Obo]

ATGATT 98% of the time for me...I occasionally wear jeans for short grocery runs to the store 4 miles away.
I believe it is easier to make more sweat than it is to make more skin.

For those reading, regardless if you're an ATGATT fan or not, there are always options to make yourself a bit safer.

If you're not a "riding over pant" type of person you can buy jeans with Kevlar in them, such as https://dragginjeans.net/

Are they as good as a dedicated overpant? Perhaps not, but they are better than just jeans.

So you can keep your image up while out on the bike and to some degree after you've sanded yourself on asphalt.

And @Upt' North I agree some folks are just oblivious. If they will pull out in front of a transport truck barrelling down on them, what chance does a MC really have?

 

[Weaselinsuit]

Risk elimination after a certain point is about small reductions. As others have pointed out, wearing a helmet is likely the biggest one you can make after educating yourself, i.e., how to ride and control the bike, what to look for to avoid accidents, constant vigilance etc. I don't think you ever stop learning either.

After that, it's small reductions. Take the airbag vest. It will reduce or prevent injury (for the most part) for lower speed collisions according to the study I linked. Likely won't help as much for impacts at high speed. But still, it provides a reduction so why not take advantage of that? Plus, you get to indulge gadgetitis. Win freakin' win baby!

These types of discussions can be endlessly fascinating and entertaining with no real resolution, still enjoyable though cause what's better than talking about motorcycling? And my inner insurance lawyer geek.....well, outer said geek, finds this kind of stuff really interesting. Science man, it's not just for the smart.

 

[Erdoc48]

Good discussion…as for me, all the gear, including the airbag vest. Speed can be a factor as well, so I’m a bit of a slower rider (and I know that doesn‘t help with a distracted cager). I have helmet lights on the back that go on with braking as well as flashing brake lights on the bike and LEDs up front. If you can’t see or hear me (Stebel horns on all my vehicles), well, you're just not paying attention when driving. It’ll never be about elimination of risk, just risk mitigation.

We just had the yearly biker rally in Myrtle Beach…loads of HD riders going up and down the strip, no helmets and the SOs were often times wearing shorts and sandals. That’s a whole lot of hurt if you go down, even at lower speed.

I recall the old Honda slogan (which for PC reasons they probably can’t have now)…’Stupid Hurts’

 

[Weaselinsuit]

It’ll never be about elimination of risk, just risk mitigation.

Could not have said it better myself.

Have been considering the helmet lights myself, I'm curious if you have noticed if they have an impact (pun not really intended)? Hard thing to gauge I guess but low cost risk in using them for what might be a benefit.

 

[Obo]

Good discussion…as for me, all the gear, including the airbag vest. Speed can be a factor as well, so I’m a bit of a slower rider (and I know that doesn‘t help with a distracted cager). I have helmet lights on the back that go on with braking as well as flashing brake lights on the bike and LEDs up front. If you can’t see or hear me (Stebel horns on all my vehicles), well, you're just not paying attention when driving. It’ll never be about elimination of risk, just risk mitigation.

I find it funny how we (even I do it) say "all the gear" but think of an airbag vest as extra. ATG for me means helmet, gloves, jacket, riding pants, MC boots. Airbag vests and any extra are just that, extra. I wonder if in a few years the extra's will become part of the mainstream ATG?

I also agree there's a whole section on making yourself and the bike more visible. It's part of that whole accident avoidance package that comes into play before your gear get's to do it's damage mitigation duties.

 

[the Ferret]

Good point about the speed, breaking the riding laws etc, riding recklessly, drinking or taking drugs and riding. Even on motorcycles it's amazing how many accidents involve drinking and riding.

 

[Erdoc48]

Could not have said it better myself.

Have been considering the helmet lights myself, I'm curious if you have noticed if they have an impact (pun not really intended)? Hard thing to gauge I guess but low cost risk in using them for what might be a benefit.

I followed my brother on my 94 when we went to NC (Dragon, Cherohala) recently (I was riding the 2000, he on the 94). More lights (to me) is always better. Seeing the brake lights on that bike makes me glad I have brighter LEDs and the flashers as you can see those from a decent distance. A helmet light can add to the benefit I would assume.

 

[Erdoc48]

Good point about the speed, breaking the riding laws etc, riding recklessly, drinking or taking drugs and riding. Even on motorcycles it's amazing how many accidents involve drinking and riding.

On the recent trip, we had one guy go down on his FJR- mostly abrasions as he was wearing a road suit. The bike wasn’t damaged all that badly, but he was going a little fast for the curves of the Cherohala, hit some gravel, panic braked, and lowsided.



I go slower knowing my limits and happily have not gone down

 

[TPadden]

In my case, it amuses me when people refuse to overtake me, or when they read what it actually says on my jacket, and display their anger. ..I do agree that it's getting worse though.

I see a cause and effect relationship.

Tom

 

[Grabcon]

Well I am pleasantly surprised at this discussion. I did the post more for the comments from the SHP and EMT than anything else. I like the stories that you folks have and some of the humor that has come up too.

Like many I too have gone down, mine was at 45mph low side on the left. On a two lane road with fairly heavy traffic. I hit the brakes , went down and slide for a ways, the bike slide across traffic missing everyone and everything. Myself I slide down the centerline of the road. My riding pants, jacket and helmet had yellow paint on them. Like the bike I missed everything. I had no injuries and the bike had a little wear on the crash bar other than than there was no damage. So I am a believer in ATGATT. Now the funny part of the story, 30 minutes after the get off and the city police, and sheriff left the seen I was getting on the bike ready to leave and the highway patrol showed up. He, not knowing anything to my recollection gave me a careless driving ticket for crossing the centerline.

A funny story. I was in North Carolina on a 90 plus degree day, stopped at a way side rest for some relief. I was wearing full gear, and this guy asked if I had hit some rain. I said no and ask why he asked the question. He looked at my riding gear and said you have a rain suit on. Now it was mesh gear so I kind of ignored his ignorance. But, I in my wit said nope it just riding gear. Then I said it is like when you were a kid you spend 25 cents on a condom to prevent a lifetime of grief. He understood and got a chuckle.

 

[PmodelinUS]

Here is a story of a guy who when he was young often rode without his helment, jacket or gloves on. Yeah I know I was 21 then. I was riding in traffic one afternoon when everyone hit the brakes, I grabbed too much front brake and lost it. I went over the bars in front of the bike and under the pick up in front of me. I was lucky! As I went under the truck the bumper caught the bike and stopped it from killing me. My foot however was not so lucky. I broken in several placed as the truck slid over my foot with the brakes locked up. Besides the broken foot I was mostly lucky just a lot of road rash. Wish I could show you how my hands looked though. They were black and had second degree burns from the pavement as I treied to protect my head when I landed. My helment which was strapped to my bike went flying across the street. Most people thought I was dead. Ha Fooled them! After that even when I lived in Phoenix it was gear all the time. I have been down 2 more times on the road and a few dozen dirty biking since then and the outcome with gear on has always been better.

 

[the Ferret]

On the recent trip, we had one guy go down on his FJR- mostly abrasions as he was wearing a road suit. The bike wasn’t damaged all that badly, but he was going a little fast for the curves of the Cherohala, hit some gravel, panic braked, and lowsided.



I go slower knowing my limits and happily have not gone down

Yea the speed limit on the Cherohala is 45 I believe, but I have seen guys running in excess of what I would guess 100 mph on there. My nephew ( a very fast rider) was running well in excess of the speed limit (maybe 75?) on the Cherahola one time, and got passed on both sides by 2 guys riding liter class sport bikes. Sometimes motorcyclists are their own worst enemy when it comes to safety.

I'm a speed limit +- 5 mpg guy. At my age, I'm not in so much of a hurry anymore. Wherever I am going will still be there. Just got back from a multi state tour where the ride leader seemed to like riding 15-25 mph over the posted limit. I was very uncomfortable at those speeds. The 3rd member of our group who also was uncomfortable with the speeds finally asked him not to ride more than 10 over. That's why I mostly ride alone.

 

[ST Steven]

This is whats left of my Built jacket and helmet I was very thankful to have them on in March.

 

[bdalameda]

Good discussion - It kind of reminds me about arguments for and against using seatbelts in cars years ago. I remember hearing a few people say they would not use them because they heard of someone getting trapped inside the car when an accident happened and either burning to death or being drowned. What these people failed to consider was the fact that for the rare occurrence of someone being trapped by a seatbelt there were thousands of people being saved by using them. No 100% gauranties but your odds of survival increase exponentially.

Now during my older years, I don't bounce back from injuries like I used to and a broken or bruised rib to a young person may be minor but to me a bigger issue. I wear my gear and also got an airbag vest too.

 

[ad.hom]

I see a cause and effect relationship.

Tom

I was going to write about correlation, but you know, you're right. I wear that stuff because it's getting worse on the roads.

 

[Mellow]

Now during my older years, I don't bounce back from injuries like I used

Heck, I can mow the lawn and not bounce back like I used to... lol