1300 Clutch fluid cover screw-ed

But WAIT.....there's more!!!!
:biggrin:
IF the JIS drivers and screws are so superior.....why are they not used more.....and why (other than Amazon) are they not widely available....or even labeled as JIS?
I live in a rural area with the normal outlets, as I suspect many of us do, so if I want/need something NOW to fix my thingamajig NOW..... I don't have the luxury of going to a highly specialized source with umpteen grades/specs of parts or waiting for online deliveries.
Can anybody explain???
:confused1:
It's not a matter of being superior, they are different.* Would you say a Robertson head screw (square drive) is superior to a slotted screw? Both have their applications. Re read what @DannoXYZ said earlier in this thread. JIS screw drivers and screws can be tightened to a higher torque than Philips, and as he said in another of his posts, ALL the screws on Honda bikes are JIS. I recall reading somewhere that GM has switched over to all Torx head screws. These certainly have some advantages over other configurations from an automated manufacturing pov, but are they 'better' or 'superior' to allen or good ole hex head bolts?

If a screw is stuck, you need to apply more torque to loosen it, and that's where a JIS screw and driver is superior to Philips (or a Philips driver in a JIS screw).

*I disagree with @STRider's post saying JIS are superior screws for the reasons I've listed. Just for the record, there are more than a few Phillips screws running around this country in many applications, and there are quite a few wooden boats fastened w/ good old bronze slotted screws.
 
But WAIT.....there's more!!!!
:biggrin:
IF the JIS drivers and screws are so superior.....why are they not used more.....and why (other than Amazon) are they not widely available....or even labeled as JIS?
I live in a rural area with the normal outlets, as I suspect many of us do, so if I want/need something NOW to fix my thingamajig NOW..... I don't have the luxury of going to a highly specialized source with umpteen grades/specs of parts or waiting for online deliveries.
Can anybody explain???
:confused1:
NIH - Not Invented Here Syndrome is common in U.S. manufacturing.

GM won't use superior tech from outside vendors. Some of it is cost-cutting and profit-padding. As whole (average) Denso plugs and injectors have better performance and durability than Autolite, AC-Delco or Champion. Bosch makes best petrol pumps and filtres. ZF makes great rack-n-pinion steering. GM will actually use it when there's no local alternative for better performance, like on Corvette.

ECE headlamp standards were upgraded 1983 with superior replaceable bulbs and beam-pattern than DOT's sealed-beam flashlight spot-beams. GM was fine with using sealed-beams forever. Ford had to petition DOT to be able to use headlights with replaceable bulbs (made outside U.S.). DOT didn't approve new replaceable bulb-standards until decades later and had to come up with their own specifications and regulations, i.e. 9003 = HB2/H4, 9004 = HB1. This was just ploy to keep foreign products out.
uc


Another ECE breakthrough standard was HID and best lighting on market for over 10-yrs before it showed up in U.S. model. Even then, crappy copy not matching foreigner's performance. Lexus, Infinity, BMW HID lamps are top-picks for retrofiting older cars with HID lamps
uc


Difference in culture - U.S. consumers tend to look at lowest cost. Whereas Japanese demand quality 1st. They'll inspect materials of products and manufacturing methods when making purchasing decisions. They care that screwdriver shaft is made of chromoly instead of mild 1022 steel. Result is costs of Japanese products are extremely high relative to what's available in U.S. How many of us wouldn't think twice about spending $15 for screwdriver when there's $1.50 alternative ? There's tonne of top-quality products that's priced way out of U.S. market because no one would ever buy them here. Once you've tasted yubari melons from Hokkaido, you won't ever go back to eating stuff grown by Motari Farms here or imported by Dole from Mexico or S.America. They go for $200 to $45,000 each!!! And they're selling every single one of them!!! :eek:

Study was done in 1996 as part of trade-wars over auto-sales. GM demanded more of their vehicles be sold in Japan. Study showed that dealers of GM autos had to have them repainted to better standards before Japanese buyers would even look at them.

JIS A standard wasn't extended in 2008. JIS B is similar to DIN 5260-PH/ISO 8763-1. Matching screws and drivers work extremely well, probably 90% of torque of JIS A before cam-out and still 100,000% better than Phillips when it comes to extreme cases of corrosion and precise fit. As with headlamps, we're clinging to 100-yr old screwdriver standards that should've been updated long time ago.

Information exchange and media sources - U.S. is isolated, many people don't venture much beyond their birthplace their entire lives and speak only 1 language. In Europe & Asia, you can travel in couple hours into completely different country with different language and culture. Information comes from multiple sources, whereas in U.S. 99.99% of media most people get their info from is owned and controlled by 7 families.


Somewhere there's a line. I use Parado Principle, 80% of Japanese standards is good enough for me. However, demanding top-quality "kaizen", has improved everything over the decades: autos, motos, household electronics (TVs, stereos, phones, etc.). I recommend checking out "Built To Last" by Collins. Also 1994 documentary "Challenge to America", which contrasted philosophy and production methods between IBM, GM, Toyota, etc. vs. their competitors. It actually predicted downfall of IBM and GM as "blue chips". Toyota now exports more cars out of U.S. than GM; without forcing anyone to buy them...
 
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But WAIT.....there's more!!!!
:biggrin:
IF the JIS drivers and screws are so superior.....why are they not used more.....and why (other than Amazon) are they not widely available....or even labeled as JIS?
I live in a rural area with the normal outlets, as I suspect many of us do, so if I want/need something NOW to fix my thingamajig NOW..... I don't have the luxury of going to a highly specialized source with umpteen grades/specs of parts or waiting for online deliveries.
Can anybody explain???
:confused1:
To add to the already excellent discussion of JIS vs Phillips, I read somewhere about Phillips being designed to cam out due to unskilled labor in military factories at the time, better to slip out then strip the head and need to drill.
 
FWIW, I used a regular phillips screwdriver on all my motorcycle JIS screws for decades without ever having any issues. Granted, it was a Snap-On screwdriver, so maybe a bit better than average quality (or maybe not) but until I started hanging out around here I never knew JIS existed.

After I bought a Vessel JIS screwdriver I now use it all the time instead of my Snap-On, on phillips or JIS screws, it just fits the slot better on everything. So, while I can feel the difference, I'm not convinced that using a good quality regular phillips driver on JIS fasteners is going to cause problems, but YMMV.

To your question about why they aren't used more, my guess is its a Japan market type of thing that the rest of the world doesn't really bother with.

My brother in law is a Toyota mechanic and I asked him about JIS screwdrivers and if he uses them at work. He said "what?" lol
He then said that he uses snap on tools and thinks they work just as well. :)
 
My brother in law is a Toyota mechanic and I asked him about JIS screwdrivers and if he uses them at work.
Working daily on Japanese made products (air-conditioners) and spending much of my free time on Honda motorcycles I'm absolutely convinced of JIS screwdrivers...
And yes, they also fit perfectly on the screws of my '96 Toyota... in a degree any regular Philips (Wera, Hazet, etc...) drivers just won't...
 
FWIW, I used a regular phillips screwdriver on all my motorcycle JIS screws for decades without ever having any issues. Granted, it was a Snap-On screwdriver, so maybe a bit better than average quality (or maybe not) but until I started hanging out around here I never knew JIS existed.
He then said that he uses snap on tools and thinks they work just as well.
My experience has been the same. I do have JIS drivers, but I used my Snap-On Phillips drivers for decades and have never had a problem and have never damaged a JIS screw.
I have also always noticed that my Snap-On and Mack drivers hold Phillips screws more securely than any other brand that I have used, so the quality of the driver would seem to be a factor.
 
Been Using JIS screw drivers for decades on my Japanese made machinery. That said, I have used Snap On drivers too......and....they work beautifully with JIS screws.

On 2 of my motorcycles, I installed allen / socket head screws on the brake and clutch master cylinders. Mutilated or stripped out screw heads ...eliminated.
 
.....
On 2 of my motorcycles, I installed allen / socket head screws on the brake and clutch master cylinders. Mutilated or stripped out screw heads ...eliminated.
That would eliminate all this crap.....be either metric or standard.....and that size socket/wrench would FIT!!!!
Care to share your sources?
 
I have some for you George. You going to Oswego RTE?
Hey Dean, didn't I send you some a few years ago when I was giving them away?

I was just down the street from the place where I bought them today, I could have picked up a few more allen heads while I was there. Haven't been there since pre-COVID, I wonder if they're still selling them individually for a few cents each like before, they no longer list prices on their website.
 
That's a real good possibility/probability Doug! Better memory than me these days. At any rate, I still have some and it sounds like George could use em.
 
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&*&^&*

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread's discussion of the JIS standard vs. Phillips for screwdrivers.
Based on this website and the fact that the last mechanic to work on my bike, our own Aniwack (from my area north of Atlanta, GA) said to use JIS screwdrivers NOT PHILLIPS head..,

I'm ordering the one shown above from Amazon today. It's not the same brand, nor has the same color handle, as Aniwack uses,
but I can't find that other kind (I took a pic of his screwdriver at his shop but can't access that photo anymore.)

EDITED TO ADD: I was fooled by Amazon's "bait and switch" programming. I searched ONLY for "JIS" screwdrivers, but that
"Vessel" brand one turned out to have a Phillips head, per the detailed specifications.
I'll keep searching.


This one looks correct.
 
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Maybe not. I still don't know what I just ordered (I could still use another, new, quality Phillips #2 screwdriver anyway...)

Can somebody please recommend an exact specific model screwdriver that they KNOW is
a JIS size 2, and is correct for most of the screws on my 2007 Honda ST1300?
 
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