Where did the recommendation for Honda M-77 Assembly Paste start?

Igofar

Igofar

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While doing a brake job on the wife's CRV, I noticed the Service Manual calls for M-77 Assembly paste part #08798-9010, on the back of the brake pads and pins etc.
This is simply a type of brake caliper grease with about 20% percent Moly.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that some parts person at a dealership didn't know better, and when someone asked for moly 60 paste, found they didn't have any, so they told them that the Honda M-77 assembly paste was the replacement to get the sale :rolleyes:
Then to make matters worse, somebody on a forum somewhere, started telling folks that he was told that this was the replacement, and now everyone believes it to be true, after all someone on the forum said it was OK :rofl1:
And just for the record, I've opened up a couple ST1300's that used it on their splines (because that's what the kid at the parts counter told them to use) and found that it was no better than using ordinary bearing grease on them!
Like Elvis, the M-77 left the bldg and the splines were bare.
I'll stick with Moly paste that has moly solids in them.
 
there's a million threads on it out there in cyberspace, but I don't know who actually started the whole thing, it wasn't the kid at the parts counter.

I'm one of the few who never listened to the moly 60 advice in the first place and put moly bearing grease on the splines occasionally when I felt like it, or just put the wheel back on without doing anything to it after a tire change. I never cleaned any moly 60 residue off the splines either (well, maybe once or twice just in case there was some dirt/grit mixed in), so there was always some remnant still clinging on. After 20 years and 110k miles the splines still look pretty good, so it didn't seem to have any negative effect. And I wonder why Honda would discontinue such a magical product if the net result was all drive splines would turn to dust within 10k miles if they did.

As you know, there's a Loctite moly paste out there if you really can't stand the idea of using M-77. And I apologize for the lack of moly 60, after 19 years of ST ownership I finally broke down and bought a tube last year, and Honda promptly discontinued it, sensing the world was ending anyway.

edit for accuracy: This is not suggesting I never put any moly on my splines for 19 years, that is not the case. Occasionally a tire changer would put moly on the splines when doing the tire change, so the splines got new moly periodically, but not necessarily with every tire change.
 
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There have been discussion threads on this forum about using assembly lubes instead of Moly 60 or an equivalent. I'd never use assembly lube or recommend it.

I can't believe Honda recommends it in the place of Moly 60.
 
I have been using this...PolyTron EP-2. Our helicopter mechanics told me about it. High temp. use and is military grade. Been using it now for 10+ years. I'm sure it's sold on Amazon...like $12-$15 dollars. Stays on the splines and they look new even at 79K miles. My two-cents.
 

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Igofar said:
Then to make matters worse, somebody on a forum somewhere, started telling folks that he was told that this was the replacement, and now everyone believes it to be true, after all someone on the forum said it was OK
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I am not going to malign all parts guys, but I went to a Honda dealership near me and asked for the old Moly paste and was told the M-77 replaced it. I cannot believe he acted on his own and just grabbed the 77 and said it is the new moly paste unless he was told that.

dwalby said:
there's a million threads on it out there in cyberspace, but I don't know who actually started the whole thing, it wasn't the kid at the parts counter.

I finally broke down and bought a tube last year, and Honda promptly discontinued it, sensing the world was ending anyway.
Click to expand...

So maybe the parts kids got it from the internet. And I guess you breaking down and buying that tube shocked Honda into discontinuing it - maybe they figured that when the last hold-out gave up and bought some (you), nobody else would.:bow1:
 
Not making any judgements on EP-2 grease, but this is what the manufacturer has to say about it:

"POLYTRON EP-2 Lithium Complex Grease is a superior quality, multipurpose, wide temperature-range lubricant. It is made with lithium complex soap, quality base oils and POLYTRON’s scientifically engineered anti-wear friction reducing formula with other additives to contribute to its outstanding qualities of water resistance and anti rust/corrosion protection. It may also be used in electric motors of NEMA insulation class A and B types. POLYTRON EP-2 Lithium Grease does not soften excessively during high speed operation in rolling contact bearings. Excellent for automotive and industrial equipment."

As such, a lithium grease does not fill Honda's requirements for the splines, but what do I know when someone has used it successfully for 10 years?
 
Right after purchasing my 1991, I rounded up all the spares and lubes documented in the Honda maintenance manual. Couldn't find 60 in local bike or automotive shops so I went to my Honda dealership. They said M77 was the replacement recommended by the factory. Several of us have been told this, different dealerships in different states, at different times.
Hardly a rumor started on this board, but the official word of Honda.
That aside.....the debate as to M-77's suitability as a replacement for the original product seems to be up for debate.
Two different issues.
 
It is just barely possible that continued testing taught Honda that the original Moly Paste was overkill and not needed, and they subsequently recommended the M-77. Just speculation on my part - no factual info pointing in this direction.
 
Oldbikefixr said:
Right after purchasing my 1991, I rounded up all the spares and lubes documented in the Honda maintenance manual. Couldn't find 60 in local bike or automotive shops so I went to my Honda dealership. They said M77 was the replacement recommended by the factory. Several of us have been told this, different dealerships in different states, at different times.
Hardly a rumor started on this board, but the official word of Honda.
That aside.....the debate as to M-77's suitability as a replacement for the original product seems to be up for debate.
Two different issues.
Click to expand...

No disrespect intended, however, in a retail business their goal is to sell something.
Just because the parts counter person in one or several shops tell you that honda has replaced their Molly 60 with this product does not mean It's the official word from Honda.
Do you believe everything a sales person tells you?
Has anyone contacted Honda? Or are folks just trusting the guy behind the counter?
 
What you are describing is neglect plain and simple.
Makes me wonder if you have a VW Micro Bus that you just drive until the wheels fall off :rolleyes:

Directed to MR. Dwalby
 
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Igofar said:
What you are describing is neglect plain and simple.
Makes me wonder if you have a VW Micro Bus that you just drive until the wheels fall off :rolleyes:

Directed to MR. Dwalby
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I'll send you a photo of the splines next time I take the wheel off for a tire change, they look brand new. From a purely academic perspective, it probably is neglect, but in the real world the consequences appear to be zero, so I'm good with it.

Looks like Doug1300 has gone against common wisdom for 10 years as well, with no ill effect, must be something in the name.

You have self-confessed OCD towards maintenance, so let's just leave it at that.

edit: you're not the first to use the drive it until the wheels fall off it analogy towards my maintenance habits, yet you could count the number of people on this forum who have owned their ST longer than me on one hand, so my wheels are doing just fine, thank you.
 
Wanna bet a BBQ dinner that I find about a dozen things in need of repair on your bike?
Ride up my way and I will do one of my OCD free inspections and see what we find :)
Respectable mileage on your bike...my last HD Roadking rolled over 342,000 on the original stock engine.
Or better yet, why not ride my way and I will just buy you lunch cause I am a nice guy.
 
Igofar said:
Wanna bet a BBQ dinner that I find about a dozen things in need of repair on your bike?
Ride up my way and I will do one of my OCD free inspections and see what we find :)
Respectable mileage on your bike...my last HD Roadking rolled over 342,000 on the original stock engine.
Or better yet, why not ride my way and I will just buy you lunch cause I am a nice guy.
Click to expand...

I can give you a list. My bike is roadworthy, but nowhere near perfect, and I have no interest in trying to make it perfect.
 
Igofar said:
now everyone believes it to be true
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Not quite everyone, Larry !

There was a thread to which I contributed a while back. Thread is here. My comments in posts 8 and 12.
The Honda shop manual that I have has recommendations for minimum 40% Molybdenum disulphide and with NLGI #2 consistency. One is G-n paste from Dow Corning USA, another is ASP from Rocol in the UK.
So about 15 months ago, I contacted both companies.

Rocol replied:

Rocol ASP is an old product name for Dry Moly Paste, this is an NLGI 3 however so will be slightly stiffer.
MTLM in an NLGI 2. Both of these product have 50% moly content.

Rocol also sent me the spec sheets for their Dry Moly Paste and MTLM Assembly and Running In Paste​

Dow Corning gave me the following information

Mainly, mineral based oil products like G-n Plus are used for the situations that I described for the final drive of the ST1300
They say that their Molykote M77 paste is Silicone Based.​

Dow Corning G-n Paste was the stuff that Honda recommended for the USA market.

The Dow Corning website has the product sheets - the M77 is for low to moderate loads and suggests suitability for lubricating brake pad backing plates. The G-n paste sheet says it is for extreme pressures and is the one recommended by Honda in the shop manual.

This is assuming that the Honda M77 is the same stuff as the Dow Corning M77. I thought I had previously seen the term 'Molykote' (a registered trade mark) on the Honda product, but I can't find one with that term now. Whatever, I've seen enough of a difference to leave me suspicious and when my Honda Moly 60 runs out, I'll be looking for the G-n paste
 
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Igofar said:
No disrespect intended, however, in a retail business their goal is to sell something.
Just because the parts counter person in one or several shops tell you that honda has replaced their Molly 60 with this product does not mean It's the official word from Honda.
Do you believe everything a sales person tells you?
Has anyone contacted Honda? Or are folks just trusting the guy behind the counter?
Click to expand...

Cut to the chase question then. If (and apparently so since my Honda dealer also has no M60 available) M77 isn't proper spec for rear spline lube, what are you using (assuming you don't have an infinite stash of M60)??
I drank to Kool Aid and bought/used M77 also, even after reading the thread from prior times.

Im OCD in many respects, but my motorcycle maintainence isn't in that arena.
 
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