Ideas sought: brick patio needs attention

ibike2havefun

Still above the sod
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Hi-

My sister-in-law's front-door patio is made of dry-laid (un-mortared) brick packed tightly together, over a bed of sand. The whole shebang is elevated, and the boundaries on two whole sides plus part of a third side are formed by 2x8 (I think, or maybe 2x10) pressure-treated lumber stood on the edge. The lumber is held in place with a combination of L-shaped corner braces and 2x4 stakes driven into the ground at intervals along the outer face of the edge boards. The stakes are probably 2 feet long and driven to the point where their tops are flush with the patio surface.

This is in Pennsylvania, where there are plenty of freeze/thaw cycles each winter plus a fair amount of summer moisture.

The issue is that even with all that bracing, the border lumber bows outward over time, enabling the sand to slip down and causing the perimeter bricks to sag. Of course it gets a little worse each winter.

Clearly a more substantial border is needed, or better reinforcement of what's already there. I'm looking for ideas on how to more permanently rectify the problem. It occurs to me that I could either replace the existing border materials with more robust timber, say 4x4 or 6x6 timbers stacked and pinned to form a heavier barrier, or possibly build up a low wall of pre-cast wall-building blocks. Or I could leave the existing border lumber in place and apply either of those approaches to make a buttress to prevent (hopefully) future recurrences of the bowing. I wouldn't expect a dry-laid wall of blocks to really have much ability to resist the same bowing problem, but could a timber wall (anchored in place with 2 to 3 foot rebar "stakes" driven through the lowest course or two of timbers and into the ground, as well as shorter rebar "pins" to hold the whole stack of timbers together) be sufficient?

In either case, of course, I realize I'll need to pull up the outermost few courses of brick, pare back the sand underlayment, build whatever retaining structure I end up choosing, then re-do the sand underneath to replenish and re-level the bed, then re-lay the bricks .

Has anyone solved a similar problem, or got other ideas?
 

Option 1 ??

Thanks but all of those options use illustrations of a patio at ground level, or above it by an inch or two, no more. The patio in question here is about 8 - 10 inches above the ground. Plastic edging isn't going to get the job done.
 
When I worked landscaping, we use to use 4x4 timbers, occasionally 6x6, with the first course pinned to the ground with rebar as you mentioned. The next courses were attached using large galvanized spikes with the occasional rebar pins as you also mentioned. If it goes above two courses, and depending upon how much weight it will be holding back behind it, you will want to consider inserting "dead men" timbers that extend like a T perpendicular to the retaining wall so that the cross of the T is embedded in the earth behind the wall and the end of the long part of the T is attached to the retaining wall;

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You can see the end of the dead men T's being the darker square shapes within the wall. I took it from this instructional piece on the Home Depot website. It doesn't mention using rebar pins as you go up, just the spikes. It's been a while since I did this work so I may not be recalling using rebar pins correctly but I was pretty sure we leaned towards over-engineering and used them as well.
 
I'd start with soil compaction and retaining wall / divider along any legal boundary. Then at least the rest is yours
[edit] Along my property the stip of land has become a dedication to the municipality and the developer is erecting a retaining wall. They've got drainage tile, set out so I think they're going to set that down along the wall and tie it into the new storm drain. Not the same, you're probably in a dryer area but if you have any appreciable ground water that you can route away might make it last [edit again] For a small elevation you could use 1" sched 40 white PVC and drill 3/8" holes along and slope it into some gravel. Cheap and what's more fun than drilling holes.
 
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Pictures of the site would help. Drainage is always a consideration when building sand based foundations, as well as the foundation itself. Water and time are the enemies of most types of construction.

What is the base the sand is sitting on and how deep is it? If I was doing this, drainage below grade would be my first thought. Getting the water past the barrier(edging) so it doesn’t pool even if underground. Next is the drainage of the elevated walkway. Using road fabric (thick weed barrier cloth), then some 3/4” crushed stone compacted, minimum 6” then a 3/4” sand bed. Broom in sand to lock it.

What is the surrounding surface conditions, are they graded away from the walkway? Where is the water that falls on the bricks going. Ideally you would crown or pitch the pavers to one side, the smaller this is the more problematic it becomes.

The 6x6 retaining wall solves the deformation problem, draining the water will let it last a long time.
 
You did pick up on the fact that the dead men (long arm of the 'T') would be embedded under your patio, didn't you?

Yes I did, but I don't think the "wall" will be high enough to need them. It's going to be two courses of 6x6, as the total height only needs to be about 10 inches.
 
I'd start with soil compaction and retaining wall / divider along any legal boundary. Then at least the rest is yours

This site is already established - has been in place for years, if not decades- and nowhere near a property line. I'm simply trying to correct the effect of time, and aging.
 
Pictures of the site would help.

Thanks. When I get up there later today I can take some.

What is the base the sand is sitting on and how deep is it?

I'm not sure. When I peel away the existing two-by edging I may be able to answer that.


What is the surrounding surface conditions, are they graded away from the walkway? Where is the water that falls on the bricks going. Ideally you would crown or pitch the pavers to one side, the smaller this is the more problematic it becomes.

If I recall correctly it's got a very gentle pitch, away from the house. One side of the patio is the outer wall of the house, one side is a combination of house wall, the steps and landing for the front door, and a short run of two-by edging. The other two edges are in free space.

I'll try to shoot and post some photos of the existing conditions before I disturb anything.
 
My two cents.
If you're patio is elevated you'll need robust shoring. Someone mentioned large timber such as 6x6. Depending on the length a 4x4 can be used however 2 or 3 tiers would be needed. Your boarder base should be larger aggregate such 1/4 inch gravel. Anchoring the timber boarders in place with 24 inch rebarr would secure them from shifting.
Back filling two or three rows of brick to relevel should be watered in and compacted. 'A' gravel should be used for a base to aid drainage and then leveling sand or chips and dust.
Ive installed many patios a sidewalks here in Ontario and even with our winters they have remained in place.
Do you use a joint sand like polymeric? This product is great to slow the growth of weeds which can lead to base erosion.
Good luck with your patio.
Post some photos when you're done.
Dave
 
Pictures of the site would help

Done. For reference, one side is 13' 4" and the adjoining side is 13' 11". The sides are 2x8, so the patio is about 7 1/2" above grade.

Overview. The side on the right is the one in trouble.
P3170008.JPG

Looking along that side:
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Lower angle shows the bow better. I reset that side in summer 2023, so this is how much it has moved in about 21 months.
P3170006.JPG

Bonus shot looking down at the bow. You can really see how the bricks along the edge have dropped, at the top of the photo.
P3170009.JPG

6x6 will need to be set below grade or the stack will be too high. Since I have to do excavation anyhow I'll go deep enough that I can put some gravel below it for drainage.
 
Yikes. That likely needs a complete re-do for the entire patio. I can appreciate that you are limited by time and resources though. I think you're right in your original post, you'll have to pull up the uneven courses of brick. Redo the foundation with gravel and stone dust as mentioned above. I don't envy you, best of luck!
 
THIS is why I'm a loyal customer of Lowe's.

First off, Bob helpd me get hands on the hardware and timber, even taking time to help me select the best ones available.

While we were so engaged another helpful Lowe's associate happened by, and join3d in without being asked. I didn't get his name, though.

Before that, while I was in the garden center loading up the drainage rock and paver underlayment sand, Mrs. Fun had come looking for me. Not finding me in the lumber area she had gone to the lumber / checkout / Pro Services corner to ask if I had been there. The women there put out a store wide APB for me, and even got the loader guy to look around for me.

I turned up eventually, of course, and we all had a jolly time laughing as I checked out.
20250317_135401.jpg

When was the last time you had a really FUN and enjoyable trip to any big box store?
 
Why not ditch all the bricks and pour a slab?
If you do not want to do that, fix the sagged edge, use 4x6x12' ground contact pressure treated wood drill holes, and drive 16 or 20 inch pieces of rebar or spikes though the top.
 
Why not ditch all the bricks and pour a slab?
If you do not want to do that, fix the sagged edge, use 4x6x12' ground contact pressure treated wood drill holes, and drive 16 or 20 inch pieces of rebar or spikes though the top.

Not my house, for one thing. Cost and complexity for another.

I am in fact going the alternate route. See next post for a progress report.
 
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