Will GPS's work after 5G goes online?

SMSW

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My best friend called me today to tell me that GPS's will not work after 5G becomes active. I did a little searching and the best answer I found to that question was something along the lines of, 'older GPS receivers (more than 10 years or so - like what is found in cars) may have trouble, but newer ones should not' (my paraphrase of what I read). Evidently GPS receivers not only rely on the satellites but a time signal that is(?) land based. I'm primarily interested in stand alone units - like my Zumo and Nuvi's.

Anyone know more about this? Can you explain it better than I did?

Probably the best indication of the future use of older devices is the fact that my buddy said all GPS units will be junk in a few months. He is that reliable about being wrong on tech issues.
 
I am no expert so take this with that in mind, but from how I understand it phones with GPS receivers use the cell signal for fast approximate location and then as three or four satellites are received they are used for the exact location. As far as I know my Garmin has no ability to receive cell signals.
 
SMSW said:
Probably the best indication of the future use of older devices is the fact that my buddy said all GPS units will be junk in a few months. He is that reliable about being wrong on tech issues.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty confident your buddy's track record on being wrong will remain intact.

First, related to older nav systems but not 5G... Some, but not even close to a majority, of OEM navigation systems have used 3G cell networks to communicate maintenance reminders, map updates or even emergency alerts (think OnStar). 3G going away has the potential to cripple key functionality on those units that rely on that service.

The closest controversy I can find regarding 5G and GPS receivers can be summed up here.
arstechnica.com

FCC approves 5G network despite military saying it will harm GPS [Updated]

Pai says power limits and guard band will prevent interference with GPS.
arstechnica.com arstechnica.com
.

The GPS signal and 5G are in close proximity in the radio spectrum and careless regard for the possible interference could affect GPS reliability. However the FCC under Ajit Pai - a total lapdog of the telecommunications industry with little true regard for the public - assured us that the FCC's draft order would "ensure that adjacent band operations, including GPS, are protected from harmful interference." Pai said the FCC has "compiled an extensive record, which confirms that it is in the public interest to grant Ligado's application while imposing stringent conditions to prevent harmful interference." (Ligado was a company petitioning for rights to certain radio frequencies at issue.)

That said, NO, 5G activation will not render your consumer GPS receiver useless. And in fact I expect none of us will see any impact at all. Consumer GPS receivers rely purely on the radio signal - and its timecode - directly from the orbiting satellites which will be completely unaffected by the 5G rollout. That's why your handheld receiver or Spot locator can work in the middle of absolutely nowhere. Newer smartphones can also work with these so-called terrestrial stations to allow your GPS (Google Maps) to display map of the interior of a building and navigate you through it even though the GPS satellite signal is totally blocked by the building. No dedicated navigation GPS that I'm aware of, like Garmin Zumos, support this functionality anyway.

On the other hand, military and commercial GPS receivers can rely on ground based (terrestrial) stations to supplement the satellites for greater reliability and accuracy. That's why there was a dust up in recent months by the FAA and their concern that 5G would interfere with GPS signals that are used by commercial passenger aircraft.
 
I think your buddy may be mixing a couple of issues. It is true that older gps might of had issues due to a Y2K-like bug:

www.theverge.com

Older GPS devices are facing their own mini Y2K bug next month

A simple software update should take care of it.
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com

Newer GPS' should be OK.

Re: 5G

There are potential issues of 5G interfering with aircraft navigation but, I think, it has more to do with radar-altimeters used mostly during the landing phase of the flight. Height above ground is extremely important during low visibility operations and the FAA is worried that the interference might result in erroneous measurements.

Aircraft GPS constantly monitor reliability and if the signal is not adequate, the pilots would simply switch to ground-based guidance (which usually allows for greater precision, anyway) when available.
 
Nexus said:
I think your buddy may be mixing a couple of issues. It is true that older gps might of had issues due to a Y2K-like bug:

www.theverge.com

Older GPS devices are facing their own mini Y2K bug next month

A simple software update should take care of it.
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com

Newer GPS' should be OK.
Click to expand...

Ahh... This is a different beast. My 08 Acura TL's OEM navigation system is suffering from this problem, but from my experience is only affecting its time displayed on the clocks that get their setting from the navigation system. Since about Jan 1st it's been stuck at Jan 1 2002 for a date and the clock just happens to be about 50 minutes fast.

I've used the navigation map and can't see any obvious degrade in the position it displays -- I use my android phone for any real navigation these days anyway.

So far there's no indication of a fix coming from Honda/Acura for those systems affected, but it's expected to 'fix itself' come August 2022.

Did Honda fix the clocks? -

Addressing lack of updates on this site: If you notice no new updates, it's because I'm currently not aware of any new updates from Honda. Sources are checked once a day in the morning and, if I find no new official information from Honda, I update the day counter and move on. In the news:
didhondafixtheclocks.com
 
Jay B RDH said:
ID think stand-alone GPS units should be fine... since all their data comes from timing with satellites... and nothing to do with the cell system....
Click to expand...
Exactly.
STRider said:
...military and commercial GPS receivers can rely on ground based (terrestrial) stations to supplement the satellites for greater reliability and accuracy.
Click to expand...
What you are referring to when you mention "ground based (terrestrial) stations" is differential GPS, also known as GBAS (Ground Based Augmentation Service). The type of GPS navigators that we use in automobiles, motorcycles, and smartphones don't use GBAS. GBAS is an expensive, specialty system that is only used by people who need really high precision (surveyors, farmers planting row crops, etc.) Higher-end GPS navigators used in aircraft - and even some of the higher end navigators that Garmin makes for vehicles - use a different augmentation system called SBAS (Satellite Based Augmentation Service). SBAS can improve accuracy to about 10 feet, GBAS can improve accuracy to about 1 inch.

SBAS covers entire continents, GBAS doesn't reach much further than line of sight (about the same range as FM radio).

Smartphones frequently check in with local cell phone towers to get a quick and rough determination of where the cellphone is, this so the user does not have to wait for the cellphone (which was probably in their pocket until a few seconds ago) to pick up the signals from the GPS satellites. The introduction of 5G service will not harm this, in fact, it will probably result in an even faster and more accurate estimate of current position, provided that the smartphone can use the 5G signals.

But (and this is the only way I think your friend could possibly make sense), once 5G becomes commonplace, 3G will get phased out (it's already being phased out in some countries), and if someone has an older smartphone that is not capable of accessing 4G or 5G networks, then they will suffer until the smartphone gets a fix from the GPS constellation. But that will be the least of their problems, because they won't be able to make phone calls, send texts, or access internet either.

Michael
 
My 15 year old (bought in 2007) zumo 550 still works just fine, though I upgraded to an XT a couple weeks ago.
 
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