It is possible that these numbers are correct - as previously asked does it look like the the rocker covers and tupperware have been removed?
Paula
Paula
What are the odds?
- Thread starter bobframe
- Start date
It's 100% possible... just not very likely... it would be like riding through a metropolitan area during rush hour for 100 miles and catch every green light.. sure, it could happen..
If you gave "Specific" instructions, and did not receive what you "specifically" asked for, how can they charge whatever the clearances cost to check????
In ALL my years of tinkering I have NEVER EVER found 2 valve clearances on any engine to be the same, never mind ALL of the clearances.
I guess you should be speaking to the Guinness book of records, or the general manager at the dealer...... just before you change dealers, I don't think I could trust a dealer, never mind the mechanic, who presented that to me.
I would get them checked again, soon, and gather photographic evidence as you open her up..... because it is likely you will find no evidence of work having been carried out. (In my opinion, which is worth exactly what you paid for it.)
In ALL my years of tinkering I have NEVER EVER found 2 valve clearances on any engine to be the same, never mind ALL of the clearances.
I guess you should be speaking to the Guinness book of records, or the general manager at the dealer...... just before you change dealers, I don't think I could trust a dealer, never mind the mechanic, who presented that to me.
I would get them checked again, soon, and gather photographic evidence as you open her up..... because it is likely you will find no evidence of work having been carried out. (In my opinion, which is worth exactly what you paid for it.)
A couple of thoughts. I've done several valve clearance inspections and shim changes on the ST1300. The valve clearance measurement task may or may not have been performed.
If I recall correctly, you had to go back after the 16K service was performed to ask for the measures. It is possible that the valve clearance task was performed, all valves were in spec, no measurements were taken, and the Service Manager made up the measurements and gave them to you to make the problem go away. It would be difficult to tell if the valve covers were pulled.
So, you could either trust that the work was done or go back in to the dealership and find out what happened. That may require that you speak with the mechanic.
If I recall correctly, you had to go back after the 16K service was performed to ask for the measures. It is possible that the valve clearance task was performed, all valves were in spec, no measurements were taken, and the Service Manager made up the measurements and gave them to you to make the problem go away. It would be difficult to tell if the valve covers were pulled.
So, you could either trust that the work was done or go back in to the dealership and find out what happened. That may require that you speak with the mechanic.
OP
OP
I have looked over the Service Manual and it does appear that measuring the clearances is a pretty simple operation. At this point I am willing to try it. From whjat I've seen on the forum the only "unusual" tool needed is the long, bent tip feeler gauge. Is this right? Suggestions as to where I can buy these?
OP
OP
The brake and clutch fluid was intentionally skipped at 12 because, per the tech, the fluid "looked good" and thought it could go until the 16K inertval. Since he went to mechanic school and I didn't, I deferred to his judgement. Hmmmm.......
I agree with you regarding the "eight vs. sixteen" number clue. Also, if you could see the actual paper with the clearances written on them, it is super clean (wouldn't his hands have been a bit dirty??) and looks like all the numbers were written down at the same time (pretty good memory there fella).
I am trying to reach the owner of the dealership now. I'd prefer to keep the dealership name under wraps until this is resolved. If they resolve it reasonably (I'd like a refund. Like you I fear mechanic retribution) I will keep the name private and move to a different dealership. If it gets ugly, I'll be happy to unveil that info.
Doing some of this work myself is a goal, but I think that at some point I am probably going to have to have a Honda dealer that I can trust to do important work.
Is this too much to ask?
I agree with you regarding the "eight vs. sixteen" number clue. Also, if you could see the actual paper with the clearances written on them, it is super clean (wouldn't his hands have been a bit dirty??) and looks like all the numbers were written down at the same time (pretty good memory there fella).
I am trying to reach the owner of the dealership now. I'd prefer to keep the dealership name under wraps until this is resolved. If they resolve it reasonably (I'd like a refund. Like you I fear mechanic retribution) I will keep the name private and move to a different dealership. If it gets ugly, I'll be happy to unveil that info.
Doing some of this work myself is a goal, but I think that at some point I am probably going to have to have a Honda dealer that I can trust to do important work.
Is this too much to ask?
OP
OP
Not quite right. When I dropped off the bike I was ABUNDANTLY clear (and insisted that the repair order state) that I wanted the measurements, all 16 numbers, in writing following the service. When I picked up the bike, they handed me a piece of paper with eight numbers on it.
I asked to speak to the mechanic who told me that , "Yes-all the clearances measured the same".
I said, "You mean that the .005" feeler gauge was too loose and the .007" gauge was too tight and the .006" gauge was just right?
He said, "Yes, that's what I mean".
I then asked why there were only eight measurements shown. He said, "In each case both valve clearances were the same, so I only wrote down one number".
This has to be a total fabrication. Also, it is pretty solid evidence, that he wrote them all down after he finished the work...how else could he have known that "all of the clearances were the same"? So, he was relying on his memory to document 16 numbers. Not a chance anyone would try to do it this way.
The whole thing stinks.
OP
OP
I called the Service Manager at the dealership and explained the situation. He was off when I dropped the bike off and when I picked the bike up. He completely understood my concerns and asked me to bring the bike back and let them do the work again...including doing a proper documentation of the valve clearances.
He also said that he saw the mechanic when he was checking the clearances, so he was confident that the work was done. Thought it was a communication problem.
I told him that I was not happy with how it turned out, that I didn't get what I asked for, that what I asked for was reasonable and that I wanted to give them a chance to get this right. The guy was completely understanding and agreed with everything I said.
I'll give them another chance.
And I'll learn how to do this job myself.
He also said that he saw the mechanic when he was checking the clearances, so he was confident that the work was done. Thought it was a communication problem.
I told him that I was not happy with how it turned out, that I didn't get what I asked for, that what I asked for was reasonable and that I wanted to give them a chance to get this right. The guy was completely understanding and agreed with everything I said.
I'll give them another chance.
And I'll learn how to do this job myself.
This is a good outcome to the problem, good for you for standing your ground. The dealership will be better off in the long run.
Count me in too!!!
OP
OP
I'm not sure. However, the service manager assured me that he saw the mechanic at work doing the measurements. I think that there is a very low probability that the work was not done at all. I suspect that the mechanic simply forgot to document things, found all of the clearances within spec and then tried to cover his tracks with a sloppy bit of documentation.
The service manager offered to do the work again and get involved in documenting things.
Somewhere on the forum I saw a really neat sheet that looked like a photo of the engine and cam shafts with spaces to write in what each valve clearance was. Anyone remember seeing this?
Migrate away from this dealer as soon as reasonably possible. Brake and clutch fluid absorb air over time from very small air holes in the cabling/connections. That is why there is a mileage and time limit on the recommended change - 12,000 miles or 2 years, whichever comes first. If the "mechanic" said it looks good that is the wrong answer.
I would still be concerned. You went to this dealer once and paid them good money, and they couldn't be bothered to do what you asked. Now you are going back, they will be doing the job again for FREE, do you really think you will get a quality job? IF the job is done at all, it will be quick & dirty, just enough to make you happy and get you out of there. Chances are, unless you are standing there watching it happen, all you will get is a new sheet with different, but more reasonably looking, numbers. They have already proven their dishonesty. By that, I don't mean not documenting the clearances; but in making up numbers and passing them off to you. The correct response would have been an apology, and asking that you come back after they recheck them and properly document the clearances.
Personally, I'd ask for a refund, and take your money to a different dealer and start over. Or, better yet, find someone from the forum within riding distance, and get help checking them yourself. That is the only way you will be 100% certain its done right.
By the way, I've worked as a tech at dealerships (car). I've seen what happens, and I don't like it. I would never, ever take my vehicle to one, except for warranty work. And I'd be hesitant about doing that. I've bought parts to do my own repairs to my vehicles before while still under warranty, simply because I wanted the work done right.
Jim
Personally, I'd ask for a refund, and take your money to a different dealer and start over. Or, better yet, find someone from the forum within riding distance, and get help checking them yourself. That is the only way you will be 100% certain its done right.
By the way, I've worked as a tech at dealerships (car). I've seen what happens, and I don't like it. I would never, ever take my vehicle to one, except for warranty work. And I'd be hesitant about doing that. I've bought parts to do my own repairs to my vehicles before while still under warranty, simply because I wanted the work done right.
Jim
OP
OP
Bob - Good luck with your redo. To answer your question there is a spreadsheet on the tolerances and also a graphic for recording measurements in the article section at the top of the main page. I use the "ST1100 Valve Clearance Worksheet" to record the measurements and put in my maintenance file.
I am not a professional mechanic, rather a hack mechanic. Air in the brake fluid is a bad thing because as the brakes heat up - caliper area mostly - the water (from humidity in the air) and air turn into vapor and make for spongy brakes when you need them most. In addition, I've read that the air/moisture in the brake lines may cause rust/corrosion in areas of the brake system. I always change my brake and clutch fluids per instructions the Service Manual and at the recommended intervals in the Service Manual.
The reason motorcycles have such frequent change intervals for brake/clutch fluids is because they tend to sit for long periods (on average), such as when stored during the winter in most states. That's why cars can go much longer between changes- almost daily use, year round. When parked is when a vehicle tends to absorb most of the moisture. Its not air that you are immediately worried about- brake fluid acts like a sponge for moisture. If you open a bottle of brake fluid and leave the cap off, come back a week later and the fluid level will be HIGHER, because it absorbed moisture. That is why once you open a bottle of brake fluid, it has a short shelf life. If you only use a partial bottle, don't put it on the shelf and think you will use the rest next year. The brake fluid will absorb the moisture in the air that is in the upper half of the bottle. Each time you open it, it gets a fresh batch of air/moisture.
The moisture will cause several things to happen. First, it does cause rust on brake components. Next, it compresses easier than brake fluid, which means spongy brakes. And when that fluid gets in the calipers, which see lots of heat, that moisture has a much lower boiling point than brake fluid, which will cause performance problems and possible damage to brake components. It also separates the moisture from the brake fluid, and the heat separates air out of the moisture. Now you have water concentrated in the system, and you have air pockets. All of this negatively affects performance, and the life of the brake parts.
So if you are doing like me, and riding the bike every day, you could actually extend the change interval. But if you are the average rider, you do want to make sure its done at the rated interval. After my bike does get parked for the winter, I'll be changing mine first thing in the spring- after it has absorbed a winter's worth of moisture.
Jim
The moisture will cause several things to happen. First, it does cause rust on brake components. Next, it compresses easier than brake fluid, which means spongy brakes. And when that fluid gets in the calipers, which see lots of heat, that moisture has a much lower boiling point than brake fluid, which will cause performance problems and possible damage to brake components. It also separates the moisture from the brake fluid, and the heat separates air out of the moisture. Now you have water concentrated in the system, and you have air pockets. All of this negatively affects performance, and the life of the brake parts.
So if you are doing like me, and riding the bike every day, you could actually extend the change interval. But if you are the average rider, you do want to make sure its done at the rated interval. After my bike does get parked for the winter, I'll be changing mine first thing in the spring- after it has absorbed a winter's worth of moisture.
Jim
With the valle clearance you are mostly establihing a trend. If they are getting tighter at 32k is mostly why you look at them at 16k.
Saying that I had a Honda cruiser where the exhaust valves were extreamly tight on the rear cylinder at the first check. 6k miles.
With the brake fluid it's really cheap when you do it on your own. Just the cost of the fluid. I do it every spring, just 'cause. Saying that, the ST1300A is the most complicated bike I've ever changed the brake fluid. Whole bunch of drain points. Bikes I had in the past were only the front line/ caliper.
Saying that I had a Honda cruiser where the exhaust valves were extreamly tight on the rear cylinder at the first check. 6k miles.
With the brake fluid it's really cheap when you do it on your own. Just the cost of the fluid. I do it every spring, just 'cause. Saying that, the ST1300A is the most complicated bike I've ever changed the brake fluid. Whole bunch of drain points. Bikes I had in the past were only the front line/ caliper.
OP
OP
Found it. This is a nice way to document things...makes it abundantly clear what's what. Should have taken this to the dealer in the first place. Thanks very much.
OP
OP
Gawd...I really wish I'd known this. Won't be skipping brake fluid changes in the future. The mechanic must not have known this or he never would have claimed to be able to "see" whether or not the fluid was still good. Scary stuff.