VRR: high voltage

Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
90
Location
La Verne, CA
I've had a recurring problem w/ the connection at the VRR getting bad, burning. I cleaned them as best i could, and now voltage will get as high as 17 volts. I'm not sure if this is since i've mucked w/ it recently or not.

What would cause this?

VRR bad?

Bad connections?

I'm thinking it's the 2 small wires that "control" the VRR, but that's just a guess.

thx for any help.

Marty

Bike is 93 1100, stock alternator.
 
Need to find an analog ohmeter to test VRR. And check all the connectors. Sounds like that's the proper course of action.
 
High voltage indicates a failing VRR. Find a known good one for comparison. Should be many around tho mine are all gone.

I've replaced the separate VR and R on an old Gold Wing with the combined unit from a GSXR Suzuki. Electrically, they're all pretty much the same so your options are more broad than just OEM.

Keep us poSTed.
 
My 91 loses a fair amount of oil, mostly from the alternator area. I can tell now if I've been lazy and not checked my oil level by looking at my voltmeter. If I'm seeing 16-17 volts, I'm probably down a half quart. (normal for my bike is 15.5 -15.8) When I add the oil the voltage returns to normal.

But I do believe I hear a ticking...
 
My 91 loses a fair amount of oil, mostly from the alternator area. I can tell now if I've been lazy and not checked my oil level by looking at my voltmeter. If I'm seeing 16-17 volts, I'm probably down a half quart. (normal for my bike is 15.5 -15.8) When I add the oil the voltage returns to normal.

But I do believe I hear a ticking...

You're serious? How does that work? Maybe i need to check my oil......
 
My Haynes (?) manual gives specs to check ohms on VRR. Says to set to 10X for one meter and 100x for another meter. What's the deal w/ that? Just give me the specs.

Has anyone successfully tested a VRR? How did you do it?

Gonna stop and RadioShack and get a meter on the way home. Almost hoping it tests bad so at least i know what the problem is.
 
Readings are different depending on meter range:
red/white to yellow: spec- 7.5. When set to Rx10 i get 16, when set to Rx1K i get 9.5
red/white to white: spec- 60. Set at Rx1K i get 70
white to yellow: spec 28. Set to Rx1K i get 35.

For all my Rx1K numbers, i'm off 127%, 117%, 125% for the 3 specs. Maybe that means something......

Anyone have a known good regulator that's willing to throw and ohmeter on it and see what they get?
 
The alternator is oil cooled, when the oil is low the alternator gets hot... YMMV

Sorry I can't help with the testing stuff, but I can share this link, which where I'll start when my time comes...

http://www.my-mc.com/messages/39524/139147.html?1091794935

D'Oh! :doh1: Didn't give such a thought. OTOH, why are ya letting yur oil get that low?

And, I've learned a lesson (you CAN teach and old CATT new tricks. :rofl1:)
 
N.B.! - Unless you have the exact multimeter spec'd in the official Honda Service Manual, Marty, you'll get worthless readings trying to do the VRR test. We've known this for years of testing known-good VRRs with all sorts/brands/models of multimeters. That's why we recommend a simple controlled substitution method with a good VRR. I have one that I loan out for this purpose. If you'd like me to send it, email me.

But if you've checked all the connectors for contact and corrosion, it sure sounds like your VRR is failing.

Regards, John [back to the garage to install the newly shod wheels for WeSTOC ]
 
90's Honda charging systems suck... they use shunt style VRRs....not sure if this is the same setup on the 1100...exact same symptom with his shunt RR....as it failed, it started over heating the plug too....eventually it burnt is stator out also...

my brother just replaced his shunt VRR with a 3 phase based one....the 3 Phase gets hot, but nowhere near the temps as a GOOD shunt style...

As I understand it: The shunt style keeps the charging system charging at full rate and converts the rest of any unused voltage to heat. The 3Phase actually works like a switch.


Here's what my brother wrote me about the new 3Phasestyle regulators the VFR guys are having good luck with:

Compufire Regulator Rectifier... http://www.usmotoman.com/product/vol...ystem/-1_17037

vfrdiscussion.com has comfirmed this is the one to get. And here is some other bikes people got it for to handle their charging issues in case your interested.
The VFR uses as Shunt style rectifier and the Series rectifier helps to fix the stator/RR failures from overheating and stress on the stator/charging system.

More info here... http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2598642


<D>
 
Gotta watch for correct application. The VFR uses permanent magnet, the 28 amp ST uses an electro magnet. So the wiring has to "match" to provide the correct voltages for all functions.

Good info, Dan. Thanks for chiming in.
 
My '91 with 28amp voltage is about 1/2 volt high-15.7-15.8V, same on 2 different VRR. Seems to cause no problems, only replaced 1 light bulb in 40K miles and battery has my 40K + PO's milage. I do have a slight scorch spot on the red/white wire VRR connector. I cleaned this up.

I emailed a fellow at Oregon Motorcycle Parts that makes VRRs for older bikes. His reply:
"This isn't a failing of the regulator. The problem is that there is a voltage loss to the black wire that feeds power to the voltage regulator. The regulator also senses voltage off this wire so if it's getting less here, it'll put out more on the red wire to make up for it."

Tony

Anyone know why the voltage is low on the black wire? This must be fairly common as I have read of other 28amp STs running this voltage.

Thanks
 
I ran a separate relay, but I didn't cut the wire. I spliced in above the 2 pin alt connector. When I used the volt meter relay it lowered the voltage meter reading. 1200 rpm idle 13.2V, cooling fan running at idle 12.9, cruising voltage 14.0. Quite a bit lower than the 15.8V I was getting.
 
Good on ya, Ralph. Might worth some time to search out the cause of the voltage drop which was causing this problem in the first place. I contend it's too small OEM wires, which run from the battery, thru the ignition switch, then back down to the fuse box. Length plus small gauge plus any corrosion just makes heat instead of volts.

Low voltage on the black wire at the alternator cause the VRR to "try harder" thus resulting in the problem.

I contend, over time, this problem with eventually damage the windings, the VRR, or both.
 
The voltage drop on the black wire was 2V (give or take some change). The voltage difference at the relay connection now is 0.1 V than battery voltage.

I have wondered over the 40K miles I have owned the bike why the voltage never dropped on the volt meter below 15.5 when the battery was fully charged at 13V. Now I know, the system always thought the battery was never charged due to the voltage drop on the black Alt/VRR wire. Don't know why it didn't fry the battery, but it didn't.

Now watch it crap out;)
 
Ralph, this sounds like a real break through for those of us still running the 28A. However, I'm not quite grasping what you've done. Have you replaced the the "black wire to the VRR" with a direct wire from the battery switched with a relay? TIA
 
Ralph, this sounds like a real break through for those of us still running the 28A. However, I'm not quite grasping what you've done. Have you replaced the the "black wire to the VRR" with a direct wire from the battery switched with a relay? TIA

NO, I did not replace the black wire. I used a 30 amp relay wired directly to the battery with a 5 amp fuse and 18awg wire. The relay trigger wire comes from a wire that is connected to the back of the fuse block. There is a 5amp ignition controlled connection, you have to pull the fuse block out. The connection is on the back. If you will look at the black 2 wire plug Black/white wire plug that is right in front of the red 3 wire alt plug, I skint the insulation on the black wire and soldered in the battery power wire. You could also splice in at the VRR connection. Makes a parallel connection. I opted to not cut the wire, but I believe one could cut the black wire at the VRR, since the power comes from the fuse box. Should my relay fail, I still have a working system, the voltage on the volt meter will read higher like before the bypass. There has to be power to the alternator via the black and white wire to complete the electromagnet circuit. The wire to the VRR has to be switched. I ran a direct jumper to test and turned the key off and the bike kept running. Probably feed back power through the fuse block kept the coils powered.

My theory of the Tic,Tic, Tock.

Common theory on the 28 amp alt WILL fail because of heat generated through bad/dirty connections is sound IMO, but we hear of others failing with clean or soldered connections so???????? Got to be something else.

Unlike many moto charging systems the VRR doesn't shunt excess power to ground, but rather cuts the field coil circuit (VRR white wire). The black wire sends power to the magnets and also tells the VRR the system voltage. I have ridden my bike 40K miles (90K on the clock) with running voltage of 15.5-16v. Others have these voltages also as reported on this forum, this thread. I figured this might be normal, even though I have wondered why voltage stayed high on a fully charged battery. Well due to the line loss voltage due to maybe corrosion and running small wires through the ignition key before the fuse block the voltage on my black wire was almost 2 volts lower than battery voltage. This low voltage condition is tricking the VRR into thing the battery is low and it supplies more voltage to the battery (15+v) on the red/white wire. The alt never has the chance to rest and the higher voltage of the VRR causes heat and higher resistance.

The newer air cooled alt is a single piece unit with the VRR built in. The alt connects directly to the battery so there is very little or no voltage drop for the internal VRR to read. Both alternators cut the field coil to regulate voltage.

I don't run running lights, heated grips so I don't need the extra power the 40 amp makes (would be nice, I guess). Read of 187K miles on a 28 amp alt and still going.

Maybe the reason for failure is the low voltage is simply causing the alt to work harder than it needs to????
 
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