Two BMW models on Stop Sale for safety issues

[dwalby]

Upt 'North, That's what we have on our ST1100's cassette gear boxes. Been a long long time since I have seen a transmission problem on a cassette box on a Honda. I think Yamaha's FJR 1300 uses them too. So ain't nothing wrong with the design. Me thinks its BMW's supplier of parts that has a Quality issue.

Back when I followed roadracing a "cassette" gear box was the name given to transmission gears that could be removed from the engine via an access panel on the side of the engine, while keeping everything else in the motor/trans intact. In racing its common to change gearing for each track, so that was why it was used in that application. The ST1100 doesn't use that style gear box, or at least I've never heard it ever mentioned here before.

Not sure if that's the same cassette gear box used in the BMW 1600 or not, I'm not familiar with that bike.

 

[Upt' North]

Back when I followed roadracing a "cassette" gear box was the name given to transmission gears that could be removed from the engine via an access panel on the side of the engine, while keeping everything else in the motor/trans intact. In racing its common to change gearing for each track, so that was why it was used in that application. The ST1100 doesn't use that style gear box, or at least I've never heard it ever mentioned here before.

Not sure if that's the same cassette gear box used in the BMW 1600 or not, I'm not familiar with that bike.

That's what I meant as well Doug. Take a cover off the side and pull the gears. I think if I was pushed to describe the ST11 I would say Automotive style, strapped on the back. Something is in the back of mind that the cassette type is what the 16 uses. I was just wondering how much hassle it would be for the owners, maybe not much.
Upt'North.

 

[red one]

See Honda ST series Wikipedia......The specifications show a 5 speed cassette type gear box.

 

[Upt' North]

See Honda ST series Wikipedia......The specifications show a 5 speed cassette type gear box.

I can't say I've ever paid that much attention R1, but yes isn't there an end cover on the box that would allow gearbox disassembly without removing the actual gearbox. I've never even seen the gearbox I don't think, hope I never have to.
Although I think on the Pan if you've gone that far you might as well just remove the box whereas on the K16 it would be a full engine strip if it wasn't cassette.
If I'm talking nonsense, I'm sorry, I'm at that funny age, between twenty and sixty.
Upt'North.

 

[red one]

I can't say I've ever paid that much attention R1, but yes isn't there an end cover on the box that would allow gearbox disassembly without removing the actual gearbox. I've never even seen the gearbox I don't think, hope I never have to.
Although I think on the Pan if you've gone that far you might as well just remove the box whereas on the K16 it would be a full engine strip if it wasn't cassette.
If I'm talking nonsense, I'm sorry, I'm at that funny age, between twenty and sixty.
Upt'North.

I actually remembered it from my sales literature from almost 20 years ago. It said that the cassette gear box was more compact and light weight. Yamaha has it on their FJR 1300. I also has never had one apart since the Honda ones don't break

 

[mlheck]

When talking with the dealer, it appears the issue is with one of the shifts fork wearing prematurely. He said they would be able to just remove the transmission and install a new one.

One of the dealers around here is talking about picking up the bike in the winter, fixing it and then delivering it back. He can keep his mechanics busy and we don't suffer the down time. Of course I live where it snows in the winter.

 

[Tor]

Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

I think I will go sort a box of mixed washers. At least I will accomplish something.

Lee that reminds me,,I got stuff to do too. I got to pour Ester oil in my superbike engine to make it ready for BRG .

 

[beemerphile]

Lee that reminds me,,I got stuff to do too. I got to pour Ester oil in my superbike engine to make it ready for BRG .

Tor, my friend, have you not been paying attention? You ride a BMW. You'll only get half-way there. Get a proper motorcycle.

 

[dwalby]

See Honda ST series Wikipedia......The specifications show a 5 speed cassette type gear box.

So I went there, and I see cassette mentioned for the ST1300, but don't see it anywhere for the ST1100. Not sure its true for the 1300 either, otherwise there'd be a weekly thread about people modifying the gear ratios and asking for advice. There's a lot of info on Wikipedia that isn't necessarily true, anybody can put anything there and they're regularly asking for verification of facts on various pages, so I wouldn't take Wikipedia as an absolute authority on the subject.

If you google "motorcycle cassette gearbox" you'll see lots of things that look nothing like the ST1100/1300 engine/transmission layout, and descriptions that don't seem applicable for our bikes. There may be another definition of "cassette" that I'm not aware of, so I'm not saying its impossible that the 1300 has a cassette transmission, since I don't own one. But in the context that I've always heard "cassette" used over the years there's no reason to put that style transmission in a touring bike in the first place, and the ST engine bay/transmission orientation doesn't seem to even be capable of supporting it anyway.

The basic idea is you have the gearbox out of the bike in 5 minutes, swap a few gears around, and put it back in. Nobody has ever reported doing such a thing with either of the STs to my knowledge.

 

[red one]

I dunno dwalby, I guess I must drink the Honda kool aid because even according to www-st1100.com they do list the ST1100 as having a 5 speed cassette type transmission. Now they are talking about a Pan European 1100 but it is the same bike as a ST1100. Before I retired I worked on office equipment and began seeing this stuff in copying machines and printers. I use to be able to get individual gears and put them on customers machines and get them going. Now I have to order the gear cassette assembly which was incased in plastic and you replaced this whole unit that contained all the gears. I hated that because it was a lot more for that assembly.

 

[dwalby]

OK red one, I think the mystery is solved after looking at the ST1300 service manual.

It is true that it uses a cassette type transmission, but you have to remove the engine from the frame to get access to remove the transmission from the engine (according to the Honda service manual instructions). So one of the primary benefits of having a cassette transmission, quick access to the transmission for maintenance and gear changes, is not possible with the ST transmission. Since you can't access it without pulling the engine, it lacks the convenience of a typical race bike cassette system, but it does have the advantage that after pulling the engine you don't have to split the engine cases to remove it from the engine block.

And having now seen the ST1300 removal process, I suspect the BMW 1600 transmission is similarly inaccessible, even though its technically a cassette type transmission as well.

As far as whether a cassette type is any more reliable, less reliable, or same reliability as a non-cassette transmission, I have no information on that. Anybody else have any info??

Either way, this rarely gets discussed here, if ever, so I learned something in the process. Can't recall anyone doing a transmission overhaul on a ST and talking about it here, but I may have just missed those rare occasions that it was discussed.

 

[Chunk]

I've owned / own a lot of motorcycles, including a st1100, but I'm partial to older BMW's. I always come back to them for various reasons, not the new ones though, too much tech, like most motorcycles these days. These are the bmw's I have now, reliable and easy to maintain. 1995 r100r, 1976 r75/6, 1993 k75.

 

[beemerphile]

And having now seen the ST1300 removal process, I suspect the BMW 1600 transmission is similarly inaccessible, even though its technically a cassette type transmission as well.

Not really. The engine and drive train stays in place like a true cassette...

 

[Chunk]

Thanks for the BMW pics.
I like your K75. Kinda looking for a deal on one.

In the year I've owned the k75, i've come to the conclusion that it is the most under appreciated, undervalued motorcycle around. Nothing not to like, even valve adjustments are easy, and it's a shim motor. Just use a special "J" shaped tool ($31.00) to depress the bucket and swap the shim. Takes about 2 minutes, if it needs it that is. I see them on CL and they don't sell, $3,000 will buy a nice one it seems, maybe less. I paid $2,500 for mine. Lots of motorcycle for the money IMO> Get a nice one that has been maintained and you won't be sorry. Cheers.

 

[SMSW]

Tor, my friend, have you not been paying attention? You ride a BMW. You'll only get half-way there. Get a proper motorcycle.

As fast as Tor rides, he will get there before it breaks.

 

[beemerphile]

As fast as Tor rides, he will get there before it breaks.

If not for the laws of physics and law enforcement, he would be unstoppable.

 

[STPaulK]

I never owned a BMW but I surely have had an experience that made me wonder if I will ever own one.

A group of us were traveling back from WESTOC Taos and stopped at a gas station in the middle of Kansas on a hot afternoon. One rider's bike would not start after fueling. It wouldn't even engage electricity, as if the ignition switch was broken. It was a new GS and he muttered something about a ring antenna being a known issue on new model GS. The ring antenna was a "feature" that read the key and wouldn't start the bike if the key could not be sensed/read properly. The closest BMW dealer was 275 miles away in Colorado Springs and they couldn't service the ring antenna for four days because it needed new matching antenna and key. We threw caution to the wind and threw a bag of ice on the ignition switch and the antenna was able to read the key after 15 minutes.

Technology is nice when applied properly. I just wonder why BMW equipped an "adventure" bike with a component that could fail and render a bike useless in the middle of Mongolia until a proper key/antenna combination replacement could be flown, trucked and delivered by donkey. The ultimate irony is he found a recall letter sitting on the table after arriving home.

 

[dwalby]

Not really. The engine and drive train stays in place like a true cassette...

hey, good to know, thanks.

Was that a re-design to make it easier on the mechanics when they had to replace the transmission after 8k miles???

 

[red one]

I think the design is good that being a cassette type transmission. Like one poster said the recall is with a shift fork wearing prematurely. I find it hard to believe in this age of advanced metals and computer aided design and precision laser cutting equipment this stuff still is not right. I mean mankind has been hardening and tempering metal for over 2000 years you think we would have got it right by now.

 

[BakerBoy]

Sounds like BMW is being proactive and responsible for an apparently rare problem. Seems we find that less and less these days from any product manufacturer.