Article [13] ST1300 - Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

Good Morning
After rereading this thread I see you have a plan of attack. My thought's for reaching the hydraulic line woud be a crows foot on the end of a long extension. Any way someone go's about getting this line off & back on is going to be a trick. Hope all go's well.
 
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Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

MaxPete,

What became of your grand adventure? I've been waiting with baited breath.
 
Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

Hi Mohonda / All:

OK - well, it has been a long journey and I'm still not there yet. After Christmas, I had some business travel and then came down with an olympic class crud that has kept me out of the garage for several weeks. It didn't much matter because it was too darned cold out there anyway.

HOWEVER - this coming weekend is supposed to be beautiful in Windsor (15C / nearly 60 deg. F) so I hope to do it on Saturday or Sunday. By way of preparation I now have a full set of flex handle ring ratchet wrenches (see photo) which, I am told make the job fairly manageable and so I think this will go OK. I sure hope so after all this bloody time.

BOERMF712A.jpg


I will keep you posted - and thanks for the helpful comments, encouragement and patience.

Pete
 
Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

Don't mean to rush you. I'm going to be performing the same repair soon so I will be paying close attention to your experience.
 
Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

No hurry Pete...I know the feeling of a cold garage with freezing tools just waiting to be used! :) It's surprising how we don't think motorcycle very much when it's cold or there's plenty of snow on the ground? We just had about 80cm drop on us in the last few days and another 30cm coming on thursday. Any serious amounts fall in Windsor?

take care......
 
Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

Mohonda, I promise that I will keep a good set of notes for you.

Kev - no big snowfalls here. We mostly get cold temps and grey crappy mush. Between the temps and debilitating fits of coughing, I am pooped, but I'll get there.

P
 
Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

wow.......excellent write up! Good job
 
Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

Congrats Pete for a job well done! And for the write up! I don't look forward to replacing mine!
 
Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

Thanks Kev.

This danged thing has been a big deal to me for several months and so I have been watching and it seems that is quite a spate of people having this problem right now. Once again, here is a run-down of the symptoms:
  • clutch function and lever feel are quite normal (until the fluid level drops below the minimum in the master cylinder);
  • fluid level in the clutch master cylinder on the LH handlebar drops (you`ll see it in the sight glass);
  • no visible leak under the bike (at least, not at first);

And again, a couple of caveats:
  • do NOT spill clutch hydraulic fluid (it is really DOT4 brake fluid) on anything that is painted - it will destroy paint nearly instantaneously;
  • cleanliness is next to godliness when working with hydraulics - so keep things very clean and only use fresh fluid from an unopened bottle when doing this task;
  • the bike will work just fine, as long as you keep the master cylinder reservoir full;
  • BUT - eventually, the CSC leak will become so bad that the cylinder will not be able to actuate the clutch and then you are stuck with a disabled bike;
  • how long this will take - who knows, but pushing an ST1300 wouldn`t be very much fun, I`ll bet;
  • the CSC replacement job is not easy - but it certainly can be done by anyone who has a reasonable amount of skill, and it doesn`t cost a lot (less than $100 in parts), nor does take very long doing it the way I described;
  • BUT the cost to have a dealer do it `by the book` is literally $12-1800 - which is a fair percentage of what the bike is likely worth.

Anyhow, glad to be of help.

Cheers,

Pete
 
Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

SupraSabre said:
Congrats Pete for a job well done! And for the write up! I don't look forward to replacing mine!
Click to expand...

Thanks Supra - you`ve done so much for some many of us with your experience and advice (not to mention stockpiling STs for us all later) that I am happy to be able to return the favour.

One thing - I noted from your earlier post on this subject that you are planning to use a hoist for your CSC replacement.

I`d love to have a hoist myself and there are many jobs which it would make waaaayyyy easier - but replacing a CSC is not one of them IMO. The hoist would simply make access more difficult because you really need to get UNDER the middle of the bike. I had a mechanic`s back pad and a piece of carpet ready to put down on the garage floor but my agile young helper Craig was down there before I had a chance to lay them out. In fact, he had the old CSC off in about 5-10 minutes!
The real issue is having those flex ring ratchet wrenches - good long ones with fine motion pawls - and the vacuum bleeder. The wrenches sold by Snap-On tools are the way to go on this task, I would say. I paid around $20 for each one - and they're well worth the price.

Cheers,

Pete
 
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Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

I have been following this thread and this other recent thread of the same issue https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?148019-Clutch-fluid-leak and i am not sure what to think of one thing. The OP in the other thread says he sees no external leak and must be leaking internally. MaxPete, you say there is no evidence of a leak at first. My question is , would it be possible for the clutch fluid to leak in to the engine oil or is there a barrier and the clutch/brake fluid has to leak out? The reason this even entered my mind is I havent heard anyone mention that they changed their oil afterward and was wondering if they should be.
 
Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

Hmmmm - now that is a very good question indeed BMacleod.

There is a seal in the little chamber or cavity in which the end of the CSC sits. The clutch pushrod runs through that seal and I don't know if it passes through a tube running through the crankcase or if it is simply in there with all of the engine oil and engine & tranny parts whirling around. I am sure that somebody on the Forum has been inside an ST1300 engine but I don't know who that might be because these things seem to be so darned reliable (except, of course, for my clutch slave cylinder issue).

It is worthwhile noting that the ST1300 clutch is wet - like nearly all modern bikes - which means that it actually runs IN engine oil (unlike manual transmission automotive clutches, which are nearly all dry), so I doubt that the presence of a bit of brake fluid would cause any slipping or other clutch problems. Similarly, there are around 3-4 litres of engine oil in circulation and I know that I didn't add more than a few ounces of brake fluid to my clutch the whole time my CSC was leaking - so the dilution ratio would be tiny if any occurred.

Finally, the clutch slave cylinder mounting incorporates a weep hole in the housing that is about 2-3 mm in diameter (1/8 inch) and so any leakage into that chamber will eventually run out of the weep hole rather than cause problems with the engine/transmission unit. BTW - that means that the gasket on the CSC mounting does not actually seal anything - because any liquids inside the CSC cavity (whether its clutch fluid or engine oil) will simply run out of the totally open weep hole. Incidentally, engine coolant (aka "water") pumps, including that on the ST1100 and ST1300, also incorporate weep holes for the same reason - so that engine coolant cannot get into the engine oil system if the coolant pump seal fails.

My experience with the CSC was that my initial problem was a very soft clutch which caused me to check the fluid level. The clutch master cylinder was just about empty. I topped it up and after a few days of riding (including several hundred km of combined highway and city miles), my clutch fluid level had dropped noticeably again and so I topped it up. The next morning, there was a spot of brake fluid on the floor under the bike about the size of a silver dollar (so the weep hole was working properly).

The other interesting thing is that when we took off the old CSC yesterday, there was perhaps a tablespoon of fluid still in the CSC cavity in the rear engine case which dribbled out onto the floor of my garage. During the time my CSC was leaking I had to top up the master cylinder twice - the first time, it was nearly empty and the second time, it was down to the lower limit. The total amount of fluid I added was actually pretty small - the entire system volume is small as you can see from the tiny amount of fluid we captured from the bleeding operation in my custom-made Heinz ketchup bottle fluid reservoir.

So...all that leads me to several conclusions:
1) if you catch a clutch fluid leak soon - it should not cause any problems with the engine itself:
2) any excess leakage will eventually wind up under the bike and you should see it on the garage floor;
3) but by then, you will likely have lost clutch actuation because the master cylinder will be empty - and that will force you to do something about it.

One thing to note: the ST1100 clutch slave system is completely different. Those lucky dogs have their CSC bolted to the front of the engine right on the clutch itself - and so changing the clutch slave cylinder would be (as the Brits say) a "doddle".

Anyhow, great question thanks!

Pete
 
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Ahhh, okay. I thought it looked like there was a seal around the pushrod, but i didnt realize there was a weep hole too. Shouldnt be an issue then. Good write-up.
 
Great write up, Pete! Although I found it much easier to do it with the bike laying on it's side, I'm glad you could do it on the side stand. I just like sitting and looking forward, rather then flat on my back looking up.
 
Re: ST1300 Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement

MaxPete said:
Thanks Supra - you`ve done so much for some many of us with your experience and advice (not to mention stockpiling STs for us all later) that I am happy to be able to return the favour.

One thing - I noted from your earlier post on this subject that you are planning to use a hoist for your CSC replacement.

I`d love to have a hoist myself and there are many jobs which it would make waaaayyyy easier - but replacing a CSC is not one of them IMO. The hoist would simply make access more difficult because you really need to get UNDER the middle of the bike. I had a mechanic`s back pad and a piece of carpet ready to put down on the garage floor but my agile young helper Craig was down there before I had a chance to lay them out. In fact, he had the old CSC off in about 5-10 minutes!
The real issue is having those flex ring ratchet wrenches - good long ones with fine motion pawls - and the vacuum bleeder. The ones sold by Snap-On tools are the way to go on this task, I would say.

Cheers,

Pete
Click to expand...

I have a MC lift, that will pick the bike up at the engine. I'm not sure if it will work or not yet. Also, the lift I'm looking to buy will have an area that is removable where I can get to the rear of the engine. Trying to roll around on the ground probably would be a really big pain for me, but we'll see. Right now I'm back on the 2012 due to the front tire on the 2010 is shot and I need to get to my tire machine, that my older son has at his house (he was gone to the desert this last weekend)!

And as Larry pointed out, there is a good chance that the springs in the clutch might be shot, which means I'll have to tear the front cover off too!
 
Thanks again everyone. I just went over the post this morning and added a couple of pointers to it.

Good luck all and if you need a hand - PM me and we can chat.

Cheers,

Pete
 
Pete,
I can't thank you enough for your help and these write ups!! I am new to trying to fix things on the bike myself. It started when I hit 25k miles and the dealer wanted around $1300 for a full service... which leads most people to look into doing things themselves. I was able to buy the parts and do it all myself for around $200 for the part; air filter, oil filter (K&N with the nut on the end for easy removal), oil, drive fluid, spark plugs and coolant... I think that covers it. This lead me to the clutch fluid. Being new the idea of draining this and then using a tool to bleed the fluid seemed like a big task for me. I had noticed that I was low on clutch fluid in the master cylinder before I started all of this work so I knew I needed to look into that. Turns out that I had clutch fluid leaking out of the CSC.
Long story short, after a number of calls to dealers who quoted me a 13 - 16 hr job... before parts, so around a $2000 job... I decided to do this myself. Once I saw Pete's write up I thought I would give it a try, with a buddy of mine who knows his way around cars/motorcycles.
I tried to order all the needed parts that Pete had listed with one big issue. As of last week there is not a CSC in the entire US that I could get. It is backordered and was supposed to be available as of 2/20. When I talked to the Honda dealers they all said that they could order it for me and I could pay for overnight delivery (this would put me at the front of the line once they were available) but that they could not tell me if this was going to be days, weeks or months away. One dealer felt that it would be at least a month away. With this I ordered as many of the parts as I could which was all of the parts you would get from a rebuild kit, minus the spring, no one has that either.
I know I probably should have just gone with the rebuild kit but I was short on time with they guy who had a small sliver of time to help me out on Saturday.
So, with all of these parts in hand we drained the clutch fluid, took off the oil filter.. followed Pete's directions down to removing the CSC. The one extra thing I had to do was to remove the gasket that was around the rod (sorry, don't have part numbers or exact names) which took a while. All of this work was done with the bike on its side stand. It was a bit of a pain to get to but was doable. Once we got that gasket out and the new one in and the CSC cleaned out and new gaskets around that, it was time to put it all back together. Parts back together, gear shift linkage lined up (great tip on marking that one!!!), oil filter back on and clutch fluid back in and bleeding done... it looks like my leak is GONE!!
I have had this looming over my head for about 3 months now and it has been killing me not being able to ride as I commute to work. Having this back up and going will easily take off an hour of my commute... each way. I do have to get used to where the clutch catches when letting it out, now that it is fixed. But that is a small price to pay for getting this all fixed up for a total of $45 in parts and the help of a good friend and about 3 1/2 hrs of work. The biggest part of that time was getting that blasted gasket out too, because we couldn't quite get to it and didn't have the exact right tool to get it out. Other than that it was SOOO good to know that it is now done and I didn't have to shell out what would have been close to $2000 to the dealer.
Thanks again Pete for the write up and to many others all over these forums! It is amazing to find a place where you can get so much information about working on these ST's. It is a huge help for someone like me who is new to all of this.
The great part about all of this is now that I have gone through all of this you will NOT find this guy taking his bike into the dealers again to get, what is now, a very simple oil change!!
Thanks again!
Rich
 
Excellent - thanks for the kind words Rich!

So glad it worked out for you - and as you said, whole it isn't exactly a fun job, it is quite doable for a careful, methodical person with a few tools. All of that, plus saving upwards of $2000 - and I'll take that deal any time.

Cheers,

Pete
 
First of all, a HUGE thanx to Pete for a great write up on the changing of the CSC. Very much appreciated! Sir, YOU ROCK!!!
Called my dealership (he is very fair) and asked him about it. He did not have to replace one yet, so of course he says no problem. Should be easy. After looking at his computer (14 hours of labor) he started laughing. Pretty much calling Honda every name in the book for designing the bike this way. It was pretty funny. He told me to bring it in and he can look at it. I told him i can not move the bike and that i will try to do it.
Following Pete's write up, it was a breeze. A little more difficult than that, but it's done! 3 hours of work. Tools, parts, bleeder-total cost $160. Probably saved me a good $1500.
THANK YOU !!!
 
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