Article [13] ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Other

Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

Geoff, what kind of device is a handheld VSO? I'm wondering what it is capable of, such as voltages, frequency of sampling, etc. (Do you have a link to the specs?) Thanks. :)

I've contemplated what bike electrical components I'd hook up and log on an extended hot day ride (or more likely how practical it is given that multiple rides are likely needed to record an odd behavior). Given how much less obvious the behavior is now, and how infrequent I notice it, I've given hardly no thought to digging deeper. I also don't know what mismatch of voltages / or signals that I'd be looking for and so it would be quite the exercise to capture an event sufficiently and decide which slight signal oddity was at fault.
:shrug1:
 
Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

A VSO is simply a handheld scope like the snap on here http://buy1.snapon.com/products/diagnostics/vantage_pro.asp?linkback=1&partno=EETM303A&dir=catalog

Or the Fluke meters http://www.myflukestore.com/c86/scopemeters.php
These are more professional grade the are mostly used in shops (I like to use it when I'm not certain of a diagnosis - helps with repair confidence)
I f you know someone in a shop you could maybe borrow one, but maybe the O2 sensors are cheap enough to just replace and try...

Also how about a possible intermittent in the tps/circuit that is not failing long enough to meet code setting criteria?
Based on how infrequently yours is acting up this is gonna be a tricky intermittent to find using logical diagnostic procedures.
 
Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

gsforster said:
A VSO is simply a handheld scope like the snap on here http://buy1.snapon.com/products/diagnostics/vantage_pro.asp?linkback=1&partno=EETM303A&dir=catalog

Or the Fluke meters http://www.myflukestore.com/c86/scopemeters.php
These are more professional grade the are mostly used in shops (I like to use it when I'm not certain of a diagnosis - helps with repair confidence)
I f you know someone in a shop you could maybe borrow one, but maybe the O2 sensors are cheap enough to just replace and try...

Also how about a possible intermittent in the tps/circuit that is not failing long enough to meet code setting criteria?
Based on how infrequently yours is acting up this is gonna be a tricky intermittent to find using logical diagnostic procedures.
Click to expand...
Geoff for the clarification and the suggestion. I understand and have used oscilloscopes, but I thought that "handheld VSO" was a new technology (as I couldn't find what VSO meant).

I too wondered about the TPS and O2 sensors, and also the air injection valve. But the surge behavior is effectively gone with a new fuel pump and it is so subtle (or so intermittent?) that I'm not sure there really is a problem to solve anymore. Over the recent years I've become sensitized to the behavior. For all I know everything is normal and is operating to factory specs, just as it was when new, but it is my senses that have changed and I've become tuned to notice what really is a 'normal' behavior. Added to that, today we have the lousy 10% ethanol fuels, and some difference in behavior should be expected given the lower ethanol/fuel vapor pressure at elevated temperatures and/or altitudes.

With sufficient resources and a lot more time, I had envisioned using a device that logged a bunch of signals to a computer in attempting to understand whether there really is a remaining intermittently faulty part. TPS, O2, Fuel pressure, pump power, vacuum pressure, air injector valve position/voltage, system voltage, RPM, ambient T, coolant T, air box T, etc. But chances are doing all that would simply be unfruitful and significantly tedious, and would only identify additional data needed where there is no sensor (like fuel rail temperture and pressure, fuel flow, and injector firing signals). The different sampling rates and number of sampling points to properly capture and diagnose whether something remains amiss is just too big to be practical. I'd rather enjoy the bike and if a part fails, it will be obvious. :)

While I'm musing, I'll add that I anticipate that many ST1300s behave the same way, but most owners haven't been in situations where it would be noticed (high altitudes, heat soaked). There are quite a number of posts by riders from lowlands that mention atypical engine behaviors when they're traveling the high country.
:shrug1:
 
Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

My apologies, what I should have said was a DSO Digital Storage Oscilliscope. I agree that the whole idea of measuring something that may not be exhibiting the behaviour at that particular time is just fruitless. Maybe the best school of thought is that if there is a problem it will likely get worse in time and therefore much easier to troubleshoot. My ST1300 kinda has this wierd intermittent flat spot at 4500 or so rpm under cooler temps. So sporadic that I just never worry about it too much. Honda has the fuel map on these things so lean I think that just a little cooler temp is what does it.

Now onto what I was really reading this thread about - I have developed the dreaded coolant leak. Been in and retightened all hose clamps 3 times now, the last time I
even smeared aviation sealant on the fittings. Simple hose connections around the T stat housing and you'd think I could fix it?!!! Now I keep reading about folks using
constant tension clamps but have not seen a solid decision as to what works best. What do you think?
 
Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

gsforster said:
Simple hose connections around the T stat housing and you'd think I could fix it?!!!
Click to expand...

Two of those hoses have other ends in the vee of the engine that are also notorious leakers.

Now I keep reading about folks using constant tension clamps but have not seen a solid decision as to what works best. What do you think?
Click to expand...

This is my fourth season with constant-tension clamps and they haven't leaked once. Full discussion on that here: CLICKY

Since you just can't keep a good meme down:
356dbs.jpg


--Mark
 
Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

gsforster said:
...
Now onto what I was really reading this thread about - I have developed the dreaded coolant leak. Been in and retightened all hose clamps 3 times now, the last time I
even smeared aviation sealant on the fittings. Simple hose connections around the T stat housing and you'd think I could fix it?!!! Now I keep reading about folks using
constant tension clamps but have not seen a solid decision as to what works best. What do you think?
Click to expand...

Geoff, you saw my writeup and pictures of the constant-tension clamps in post #32? There's no more blue blood on the floor... good enough for me. :)
 
Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

Blrfl said:
This is my fourth season with constant-tension clamps and they haven't leaked once.
Click to expand...

Good enough for me. So I guess I'm gonna have to tear out throttle bodies and do this just one more time. I'll check out what napa has to mach up the clamps with.
Thanks everyone, you guys are awesome!
 
Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

gsforster said:
Good enough for me. So I guess I'm gonna have to tear out throttle bodies and do this just one more time. I'll check out what napa has to mach up the clamps with.
Thanks everyone, you guys are awesome!
Click to expand...

Geoff, you don't need to remove the throttle bodies (although some do that). Just pull the radiator and thermostat housing and you've got enough room to get it done. Yes, a bit tight, but it is workable.
 
Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

Thank you for posting this very detailed article, I plan to attack my thermostat over the Christmas/New Years holiday break.

I'm not so sure I will take all the maintenance steps that you have, but I can certainly appreciate the extreme attention to detail!!!
 
Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

You're welcome Tim, I hope you can put it to good use.
:)
 
Re: First Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Other

st13fundred said:
I hadn't heard that before, but it does make sense because it would make things tighten "easier" (for lack of better words) . Thanks.
Click to expand...

OK, this doesn't make sense to me. Torque is the rotational force at the center of the bolt/whatnot. It will still have the same torque even if lube is used. The torque rating ensures that the bolt doesn't get rotated so that the bolt sheers.

BTW, good write-ups. Keep em coming. I need a 30K service soon!! :)
 
Re: First Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Other

Quote Originally Posted by BakerBoy View Post
As you all may know, if you do use a grease or antisieze, don't torque the bolts "as much" because you'll over tension the bolts. I don't recall the rule of thumb...but I'd guess about 75% of normal torque and you'll still have plenty of tension in the bolts.
Click to expand...

st13fundred said:
I hadn't heard that before, but it does make sense because it would make things tighten "easier" (for lack of better words) . Thanks.
Click to expand...

OK, this doesn't make sense to me. Torque is the rotational force at the center of the bolt/whatnot. It will still have the same torque even if lube is used. The torque rating ensures that the bolt doesn't get rotated so that the bolt sheers.

BTW, good write-ups. Keep em coming. I need a 30K service soon!! Did you ever find out what the surges were caused by. Did you mention it to Honda ? I've seen a few situations where Honda never 'expected' things. Such as being over 50 Celsius!! We get that in Death valley regularly in CA!!
 
Re: First Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Other

CruisingDog said:
OK, this doesn't make sense to me. Torque is the rotational force at the center of the bolt/whatnot. It will still have the same torque even if lube is used. The torque rating ensures that the bolt doesn't get rotated so that the bolt sheers.
Click to expand...

The torque figure on a fastener is there to make sure the shank stretches just enough that the tension holds the thread surfaces together and makes enough static friction to hold everything in place. Lubing the threads reduces the amount of stiction, which is why you have to apply more torque to get them to "bite" properly.

Not shearing the head off the shank is just a pleasant side benefit.

--Mark
 
Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

Or said another way... When the threads are lubed (slide easier), any given torque will result in the bolt or nut turning farther before the torque is used up. Engaging the threads farther increases the stretch of the bolt, and therefore tension in the bolt.
 
Re: First Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Other

Very nice post you did a great job of detailing the work. I will atemp some of these on my bike soon, however not the valves...

Tim D
 
Re: First Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Other

Tim D. said:
however not the valves...
Click to expand...

,,meaning you will hire it done? I would bet there are members in your area that, for the price of food and refreshment, would help you with the first time. :)
 
Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

Tim, +1 to Mark's suggestion. If none in WA, ride on out to Colorado...we'll help. :D
 
Re: First Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Other

Well, this thread has morphed into more than just the "First" service as I've documented every service on the bike here. :p

Over the Christmas 2011 holidays, I took care of the bike's next round of services with 45,563 miles on the odometer. The biggest tasks were a valve check and brake pad replacement.

48k Valve Check (3rd Check):
Yes, it was a couple thousand miles early, but no harm and I had the time.

I really like GitSum's worksheet ... it makes a nice visual tool for recording the info during the checks. I later transfer the clearance info onto a version of crazykz's valve spreadsheet (post 22).

I've learned that the checks are quicker for me if I perform cylinder 1 & 3 checks back to back, then cylinder 2 & 4 checks back to back. That saves me moving my knee pads, tools, and feeler gages back and forth between the sides, and I also can close the valve cover on one side before going to the other. Works great for me.

Result: all valves were found to be in spec. :thumb:

First Brake Pad Change:
Although it was my first experience at changing the pads, Mellow's article on rear brake piston cleaning was very useful. And MileHigh's article on brake fluid change provided great info on the brake bleed as well. I don't use a vacuum bleeder, but instead perform lever 'pumping' and synchronized bleeder opening/closing to move new fluid through. I've just learned to contort my body a bit to reach both the brake lever and the bleeder valve to work them in unison. A few days after changing the pads and bleeding the fluid, the icy roads cleared up enough that I was able to get the bike out and bed in the brakes.

Result: the brake action is very firm and definite; nice brakes again. :thumb:
.
.
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After I did all the work, I realized I hadn't stopped to take a single picture! Sorry :eek:
 
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Re: ST1300 - 1st Significant Service: Coolant, Thermostat, Starter Valve Synch, & Oth

Mark and Bakertboy,

Thank you for the suggestions from both of you and I may take you up on the Colorado run, sounds like a great ride!!

Tim
 
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