Questions To Sena And Cardo Users

Uncle Phil said:
Joe - Ah, J & M - I got rid of the J&M headsets and went with EDSets headsets which solved the 'cord' problem. I can't remember the last time I had to replace a helmet cord since I swapped to EDSets (and I do use them on a daily basis). He spent a lot of time developing a solution to that problem and ended up putting some Kevlar in his cords, IIRC. There was a video years ago of him wearing one of his cords out on the edge of a table trying to get it to break! :) He is also an audio specialist (IIRC a former professional musician) and his speakers are really high quality. In the end, you are correct - I won't get the range with Cardo or Sena that I want (though one day they will get that figured out) so there would be little advantage for me. But I do appreciate all the real world experiences - as I always say, if I am gonna shoot, I wanna be with the boys that have shot the guns not the boys that have read a book about shooting the guns! :biggrin:
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Phil, how do the EDS speakers work? I see they have some upgraded ones. I'd really like to have better/stronger sound without going to earbuds. I tried some aftermarket speakers from Cycle Gear, but they don't seem much better than the ones that came with my Sena SMH10. I guess the real question for the group... does the SMH10 even have enough power to deliver better sound? FYI, I wear foam earplugs.
 
paulcb said:
Phil, how do the EDS speakers work? I see they have some upgraded ones. I'd really like to have better/stronger sound without going to earbuds. I tried some aftermarket speakers from Cycle Gear, but they don't seem much better than the ones that came with my Sena SMH10. I guess the real question for the group... does the SMH10 even have enough power to deliver better sound? FYI, I wear foam earplugs.
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The s-plug earbuds are awesome for me... excellent sound and noise cancelling.. also, w/senna you can double-tap the bottom button on the mount and external noises are piped into the ear speakers/ear buds so you can actually talk to someone standing next to you.. good for when you're getting gas and a begger comes up to you... lol
 
A bunch of us picked up Cardo Packtalk and Cardo Packtalk bold units before the WeSTOC trip this year. With the DMC mesh technology, we were able to keep in total touch with each other, even when 5-7 of us were spread out over long distances. The dropouts came when people in front of you went around mountains.
I paired up to my old Garmin 2730 for XM music and GPS instructions using a combo of fairly high-quality devices that altogether cost me about $67. Here's a description of the system that I posted on ST-Riders.net;

So, the new task is to get the 2730 to talk to the Cardo unit. It turned out to be pretty easy, and pretty cheap. Here's what I did.

First, the Cardo unit can talk to 2 different Bluetooth (BT) devices, both in stereo, plus talk to up to 14 different riders using their mesh technology.

So the first job was to pair with my smartphone, giving me the ability to send and receive phone calls. That was easy, the unit paired right up to my Samsung Galaxy and tested fine. If you wanted to get your tunes and GPS directions from your smartphone, you could stop right there and have a great system, which is what Corey is doing.

At first, I tried just using a BT transmitter to send the output of the 2730 to the Cardo. That paired up fine with the Cardo and was pretty easy, but the volume was inadequate. So I bought a really nice little amplifier to put between the 2730 and the BT transmitter. I also got a little noise filter, which was good, because I needed it to eliminate a buzz in the system.

Miniature electronics these days are amazing - everything works good and sounds great. So I'm all set to go. The components all fit in an old Otter box I had laying around, and that tucks into a corner of my tank bag. Everything runs off USB power.

It was also pretty inexpensive. The BT transmitter was about $25, the Amp $35, and the line filter $7. So about $67 total. We got a decent deal on a pair of Packtalk Bolds for $370 ($185 ea) and I splurged on the dual driver S-buds at $209. So I have about $465 into the entire system. Less than I've spent for other systems, and almost half of that was optional (the s-buds) as the system comes with headsets.

The pic shows the line coming out of the 2730, thru the noise filter, in and out of the amplifier and into the (round) BT transmitter.

Thanks to Dan Mulkeiwicz for technical advice!
:great:

 
I have never had any helmet communication system of any kind in the 35 years that I have been riding until last summer when I received a Sena 20S Evo as a gift. It only gets used with one other person who has a Sena 20S. I use it for bike-to-bike communication and GPS voice instructions. I do not use it for telephone.

For the benefit of anyone new to these communication units, as am I, here is my experience.

  • Pairing with the other Sena unit is fast and easy. Once paired the first time it reconnects right away without any user input even after months of not being used.
  • It also paired very well to other brand units using the universal intercom pairing system.
  • Incoming sound quality is good. We both wear ear plugs and can easily hear each other above legal speeds.
  • The outgoing sound quality is also good. I do not use it for phone but I did test it. I left myself a message on my answering machine while traveling at 60 MPH and you could not tell that I was on a wireless intercom system let alone moving at this speed.
  • Battery life is good. It is advertised at 13 hrs. We have used them for up to nine hours with normal back and forth intermittent chatting and they did not die.
  • Operation for basic functions such as turning them on/off, adjusting the volume, initiating/stopping an intercom connection are all very simple to do with gloves on. The more advanced features are also simple if you can remember the correct button sequence that needs to be pushed. Like all modern multi-featured electronics I find that the same buttons are used to accomplish so many different things dependent on the sequence in which they are pressed that it is impossible to remember how to initiate all of the features. Fortunately the basic features I outlined above are very easily initiated without needing to remember any button sequence.
  • Volume adjustment is independent for each feature. This is a nice feature as you can have the volume for each feature (intercom, radio, phone, etc.) all set at different levels. This way you don't blow your ear drums when you switch from a source that has poor volume to one that has strong volume.
  • It has an external ambient area microphone which can easily be activated with one button. This is a nice feature as you can hear people talking to you at gas stations, border crossing, etc., without having to remove your helmet and ear plugs.
  • Bike-to-bike range is advertised at 1.2 miles. In the real world where you are not always in line-of-sight with each other and with interference and obstructions I would say that it is actually 1/2 to 3/4 of that at best depending on circumstances. It has never been an issue for bike-to-bike for the two of us however.

Specific to what you (Uncle Phil) are concerned about, mainly communication range, regardless of how well that I think that it works it will not provide the longer distance communication that you want it to. The newer Sena 30K has a mesh technology which daisy-chains to relay the communications from one unit to the other. This extends the effective range to cover the distance between the first and the last bike as long as none of the ones in the chain are not farther apart than their advertised individual range of 1.2 miles. You can connect an unlimited number of units together in this chain so theoretically the distance covered can be unlimited. This feature would probably achieve the distances that you are looking for but I think that it only works with other Sena 30K units but I am not sure.

In short, the only thing that you would be gaining is not being tethered to the bike. There would be no value for you in changing your system until the effective range of these units has been significantly increased to something like what a CB can achieve.

At this time I think that your best option is to keep what you already have and spend the money saved on more gas for riding.
 
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Have to agree with Joe. I have had Senas for about 7 years. They work well for what they are designed for. ie. rider to passenger communication, short distance bike to bike, getting info from my gps. They do not have range of much more than half mile and it needs to be line of sight. Battery life is about 8 hours.
 
paulcb said:
Phil, how do the EDS speakers work? I see they have some upgraded ones. I'd really like to have better/stronger sound without going to earbuds. I tried some aftermarket speakers from Cycle Gear, but they don't seem much better than the ones that came with my Sena SMH10. I guess the real question for the group... does the SMH10 even have enough power to deliver better sound? FYI, I wear foam earplugs.
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Paul - I wear earplugs and can hear my music fine with the previous generation speakers. Ed makes some good stuff, built to last. I've been a happy EdSets customer for many years. I remember when I got my current headset that he was not happy with the longevity of the connections and sent out free upgrades to all the purchasers of that particular headset and we had to do is pay shipping.
 
FWIW, I emailed EdSets about using their Thunderclap speakers with my Sena headset. Ed responded with this...

I'm sorry, no you cannot use Thunderclap speakers with a Sena Bluetooth Headset. The connectors and the internal electronics are different.
 
I'm transitioning between my hardwired StarCom1 system and a Cardo smartpack/packtalk system. I have my bike configured to switch between systems depending on which helmet I use (one has a starcom headset and the other the Smartpack). I get my GPS, music (XM or MP3 via the zumo), radar detector, rider to passenger intercom and bike to bike communications with either system. With the Cardo the bike to bike and passenger to rider thing is incorporated, with the starcom I need to attach a separate radio such as CB or FRS for bike to bike. With the Cardo I needed to add a sena SM10 dongle to hardwire feed my GPS and RD into, which then BT links to the helmet headset and this works really well once I figured out all the settings. With respect to range, we had group of I think eight of us all connected to the dynamic mesh on the last leg into WeSTOC Calgary earlier this summer and range was just not a big issue since the mesh extends the range from the first to the last rider pretty well.

I've noticed with the Cardo system that the voice communications are much clearer and work better at higher speeds than the starcom system, which is nearly useless past about 70 MPH. music volume seems to fade in and out on the Cardo when connected to a mesh but no such issue when running solo. The battery in the headset is good for 11-12 hours which on a long day isn't quite enough but if I connect the a USB charger from my bike to it during a lunch stop or similar, that seems to provide enough extra charge to get through a longer day. The SM10, also battery powered, seems to last for a couple of days before needing a recharge.

I think these new-fangled BT communicators are a viable alternative to the old wired set ups but there are still a few bugs. Uclear, Cardo and Sena all use their own proprietary mesh system. You can connect between brands but someone in your group needs to make a conventional non-mesh BT connection to the odd brand communicator. We didn't try that on our WeSTOC trip as everyone was on the Cardo mesh. There were varying volumes between users. Some voices come over so loud and clear they seem to be inside your helmet with you while others sounded more faint but still understandable. Might be how each person has their MIC positioned? Dunno. When you add someone to the group you do have to take 5 seconds to pair them in, quick and easy, but I was letting someone else do it so haven't committed the procedure to memory yet.

The only thing stopping me stripping out all the starcom hardwares is that I want a bit more time with the BT equipment to get a warm and fuzzy regarding the hardware reliability. So far so good. I can't say as much for the Starcom headsets and cables which seem to be extremely fragile. I can't count how many times I've had to repair or replace headset and cable components on my Starcom, most inconveniently often in the middle of a long trip like WeSTOC.
 
paulcb said:
FWIW, I emailed EdSets about using their Thunderclap speakers with my Sena headset. Ed responded with this... I'm sorry, no you cannot use Thunderclap speakers with a Sena Bluetooth Headset. The connectors and the internal electronics are different.
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Well, it was worth a try and Ed, as always, was honest about what works and what doesn't.
 
My guess is that "mesh" only works if all the other riders in the network have it. Put one non-mesh BT headset in there, and I think the system reverts back to the old method.

Chris
 
I had a Autocom system on the ST that worked everytime. When I bought the Beemer Suzanne wanted to go wireless. While it works, I would go back to the wired system in a heartbeat. Like you the cord didn't bother me. The bluetooth systems depend on proper handshakes for everything to work everytime. With the wired system all I had to do was turn on the bike. My main concerns are intercom, radar detector, and then music.

I'm using Sena 20s with a SM10.

Just my $.02 worth.
 
Uncle Phil said:
since nobody seems to use CB anymore to communicate on motorcycles.
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Our group, usually consisting of 2 ST's and 4 to 6 GW's, use CB on all our long rides.
It works, and you get decent range with it.
It ain't dead yet, UP....
 
I concur with Andrew Shadow comments above.
My wife and I have had Sena 10R units for about a year. Installed in full-face helmets. She rides a 2014 F6B; I’m on a 2010 ST1300.
They do exactly what we need (and much more that we don’t).
For us, it’s mostly about bike-to-bike chat to confirm status and route. Not sure about range, but we’ve never had a big issue with that. It would make sense that line-of-sight is an important factor.
I get route instructions from a Garmin Zumo 395LM.
A couple of days ago I received my first incoming phone call. Not something I want to do much. However, it was crystal clear.
Unit configuration using the Sena iPhone app is simple and easy.
In general, they meet our expectations very well.
 
mlheck said:
While it works, I would go back to the wired system in a heartbeat. Like you the cord didn't bother me. The bluetooth systems depend on proper handshakes for everything to work everytime. With the wired system all I had to do was turn on the bike.
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One part of my set up is the GPS is bluetoothed to a music receiver so it can 'play' well with the wired system. Of all the components, it's the one that I have to sometimes fuss with. Sometimes it connects just fine, sometimes it don't. I'm like you - I like just turning the bike on and everything works, no batteries to remember to charge, no fussing with connections, just plug in the headset and ride. I think it's a small price to pay for a cord! :biggrin: And on my ST1100s, I have my heated gear plug right next to my headset plug so I am only tethered in one place. I reckon I'll just stick with what I have for a while longer. I know over time the mesh technology will improve and hopefully different systems will play nicely with each other at some point. It reminds me a lot of the great 'network topology' wars years ago in the computer business. Everybody was proprietary at first but finally ethernet won by default.
 
larryg said:
Our group, usually consisting of 2 ST's and 4 to 6 GW's, use CB on all our long rides.
It works, and you get decent range with it.
It ain't dead yet, UP....
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Glad to hear it. In my experience, GWs usually favor the CB system. IMHO, it still is one of best for communication because it is an 'open' system. All you have to do is agree on the channel. GMRS/FRS also work pretty well but it's a bit of a expensive pain to get all the bits and pieces to make it work. I've got several of the old J&M portable systems that have a GMRS/FRS hookup that I use when I travel overseas as that seems to be their choice. However, you have to have their version as it plays on a different frequency than the States.
 
The only downfall I see to a wired system appears to be the helmet tether. Surely all that is needed is a helmet module/headset that only needs to be connected wireless to the bike. Does such a device exist? I have a set of (now old school) sena smh10 which for the most part have satisfied our needs, they can be finicky about sequence of handshakes etc. as my zumo 395 can sometimes cause connection issues depending on the order things are turned on. Bluetooth is great with all the features it can perform, but part of me would really like the simplicity of "start the bike and go" and I really think these bluetooth comms are in their infancy stage for reliability when compared to a refrigerator, which seems to be a more human friendly in terms of ease of operation. I hate the idea of sequences of button pushes and to ask any human to memorize all this in order to use all the features is ridiculous - it makes me wonder if the software/hardware engineers who design these things have actually ridden a motorcycle lol.
 
Uncle Phil said:
I think the 'mesh' system will eventually get around the distance issue but I still wonder if there is some distance between a couple of riders in the 'string' if the 'mesh' breaks.
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As I mentioned above, distance isn't really an issue. I don't think you'll get the distance a CB will give you but my impression is that for most practical purposes, it;s comparable to using FRS radios. The newer dynamic mesh systems will automatically heal. If one of more rider goes out of range (we had a fast guy in our group) the rest of the units remain connected. If you have say two groups that get separated by too much distance, all of the individuals in each group will remain connected to each other. As soon as you get within range again any previously disconnected units just seamlessly reconnect. It's actually pretty brilliant. Once paired the units will automatically reconnect the next day as soon as they're turned on.

Daboo said:
My guess is that "mesh" only works if all the other riders in the network have it. Put one non-mesh BT headset in there, and I think the system reverts back to the old method.

Chris
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I'm not sure if the effect is that drastic, as I haven't tried it, but I've heard connecting in an odd unit can sometimes cause issues. I think the manufacturers are continuing to work on this. It'd be really nice if a mesh standard could be agreed upon between them.
 
wjbertrand said:
If you have say two groups that get separated by too much distance, all of the individuals in each group will remain connected to each other.
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That's my exact problem at the BRG you have all levels of riding skill and we can get really spread out. Looks like my best option at this point is cell phone to be able to get called if there is an issue at the back.
 
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