NT1100 coming to the USA - FOR REALS!

Joeywhat said:
I wish they'd have a manual option. Seems that Honda especially is pushing the automatics hard. The DCT is a hard pass for me.
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Starting in 2010 with the VFR1200F in most markets Honda offered both manual or DCT transmissions on all models offering DCT. According to what information the parent company Honda Motor Co (not North American importer American Honda) has released 57% of buyers chose the DCT package since 2011. DCT take has increased over time. 70% of Goldwing buyers chose DCT since 2018.

I believe a more accurate way to look at is that buyers have been driving the shift to DCT and Honda for 15 years has more than accommodated buyers that want a manual transmission.
 
I like a manual shift on a motorcycle. Not so much in a car.

For me, the difference is "engagement". Cars are for transportation. I don't really care if they can't predict the required gear for the next uphill/downhill/pass. On my motorcycle, I want to be actively in control of which gear I'm in and the corresponding RPM.

I do understand that DCT transmissions offer the opportunity to choose a gear, but it feels like that would be an afterthought. I think I'd like to be more engaged.
 
ddemair said:
I do understand that DCT transmissions offer the opportunity to choose a gear, but it feels like that would be an afterthought. I think I'd like to be more engaged.
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With a DCT you can be as engaged as you want to be. Manually choosing when to shift with any transmission type is hardly an afterthought, it's a conscious decision. Only with a DCT you can do it faster and smoother than with either a clutch or a quick shifter.
 
I rode a VFR1200X with DCT and quite frankly it was underwhelming.... pre-determined shift points which get you into a higher gear sooner than you'd like, and while you can go into manual mode, once you reach a threshold at higher revs, it will upshift for you anyway. Downshifts were OK. Most wouldn't care I imagine, but I much prefer to shift myself.
 
the Ferret said:
With a DCT you can be as engaged as you want to be. Manually choosing when to shift with any transmission type is hardly an afterthought, it's a conscious decision. Only with a DCT you can do it faster and smoother than with either a clutch or a quick shifter.
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I believe part of the problem here is the experience most people have with automatic transmissions is with torque converter equipped hydrostatic automatics common to cars or light trucks or possibly they’re familiar with CVT transmissions in scooters. They don’t know DCTs are constant mesh gear-to-gear direct drive transmissions with the same sense of engagement they believe is essential to the motorcycle ride experience.
 
RaYzerman said:
I rode a VFR1200X with DCT and quite frankly it was underwhelming.... pre-determined shift points which get you into a higher gear sooner than you'd like, and while you can go into manual mode, once you reach a threshold at higher revs, it will upshift for you anyway. Downshifts were OK. Most wouldn't care I imagine, but I much prefer to shift myself.
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Perfect. Honda DCTs in manual mode will bounce off the rev limiter all day, they don’t upshift for you. In Auto mode they have multiple ride modes that alter shift points and most now have a mode where you chose your own combination of shift points, throttle engagement feel, allowable traction controls for pavement or off road. I gather you weren’t able to use any of this on your ride?

DCT isn’t going to be the choice of many riders. Choices are good. Most of us learn how to fully use a manual transmission over years, miles, and multiple motorcycles. Learning how to use all of and fully exploit a DCT comes with some saddle time, not on a short demo ride as you aptly illustrate here.
 
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RaYzerman said:
I rode a VFR1200X with DCT and quite frankly it was underwhelming.... pre-determined shift points which get you into a higher gear sooner than you'd like, and while you can go into manual mode, once you reach a threshold at higher revs, it will upshift for you anyway. Downshifts were OK. Most wouldn't care I imagine, but I much prefer to shift myself.
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I had the same feeling after my first " I'm just curious" test ride on a CTX 700 maybe 7 or 8 years ago. I immediately dismissed it. Honda kept improving the DCT, I kept reading reviews on it, talked to some very experienced riders who to a man praised it, and decided to give it a try. For the first couple weeks I thought I had made a mistake, but the more I rode it, and played with it, the more I came to appreciate it. Honestly most shifts with a manual shift bike are boring. Shift 5 times taking off after a stop. Shift down 5 times coming to a stop. Repeat every stop sign, every red light, everytime traffic stops. Out on the open road its get into 6th and stay there for maybe a hundred miles. Even in the twisties its usually shift down one gear for the curve and shift up one time coming out of the curve, then shift down one time for the next curve.

I'm so glad I gave it a try/chance as it has made riding even more enjoyable for me, and lord knows I love to ride. I'd buy another DCT equipped bike in a heartbeat, and would recommend them without reservation to anyone considering a new bike. From what I understand the DCT in the NT 1100 is the best yet, using an IMU to control corner shifting while in Automatic modes. Of course in manual modes the rider determines when to shift up or down, straight up or leaned over.
 
ddemair said:
I like a manual shift on a motorcycle. Not so much in a car.

For me, the difference is "engagement". Cars are for transportation. I don't really care if they can't predict the required gear for the next uphill/downhill/pass. On my motorcycle, I want to be actively in control of which gear I'm in and the corresponding RPM.

I do understand that DCT transmissions offer the opportunity to choose a gear, but it feels like that would be an afterthought. I think I'd like to be more engaged.
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You nailed it for me. My Subaru Outback XT (turbo) has an automatic tranny. It has a "Sport" mode as well as the normal mode. The normal mode tries to learn your driving habits and shift at those points. Great technology. In Sport mode, it responds with no hesitation. It also has buttons for shifting manually if I want on the steering wheel, and I can manually shift also with the gear shift.

As much as that car will give me the biggest grin from one ear to the other when you drive it like it can...it is still not like riding a motorcycle. Driving a car is like watching the scenery on a big screen TV. Beautiful picture...but it is missing something. The automatic tranny on the Outback works well on it...but then it is a cage.

My XR has a quick shifter. I don't use it. I want to be in the moment. I want to be engaged. The height of being engaged for me, is being to the point where I don't think about what I'm doing...I just do it. Shifting, braking, accelerating...all that is part of that engagement. If I do it well, it is so fluid there doesn't seem to be a separation of the machine and me. I think, I do, and the bike is but an extension of me.

The DCT is great for some. Not me.

I worked in the evenings in high school at a used car lot that specialized in muscle cars. We had GTOs, Vettes, etc. My favorite two cars were a 68 Ford Cortina and a VW Beetle. You could race those cars down the road maximizing what they could do...and no one noticed. You were just keeping up with traffic. But they were fun to drive. Both had manual trannies.

I have all the electronic aids on my XR. Cornering ABS and Traction Control. An IMU that adjusts the suspension as I ride down the road. Cruise control. And more that doesn't come to mind readily. I've used ABS once in the past on my Honda NT700V. But in my mind, while I can justify Cornering ABS for being a "safety" feature...if I use it, it means I'm not connected with the bike I'm riding. It's my fault...and I shouldn't need "features" to cover up for my ineptitude...and a DCT falls in the same category to me.

It's sad when having a manual transmission is now an anti-theft feature.

Chris
 
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the Ferret said:
With a DCT you can be as engaged as you want to be. Manually choosing when to shift with any transmission type is hardly an afterthought, it's a conscious decision. Only with a DCT you can do it faster and smoother than with either a clutch or a quick shifter.
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Yes, I'm sure that's true.

For me, what I meant by "afterthought", is that I know that I will develop habits. With a DCT, I would develop a habit of letting it do most of the shifting. Then, there would be rare occasions when I wanted to choose the gear myself, but it would be a very conscious decision and not the muscle memory I use now.

Or maybe I just like using a clutch and I'm just trying to rationalize it.
 
ddemair said:
Or maybe I just like using a clutch and I'm just trying to rationalize it.
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The riding crowd is shrinking. Older people not riding anymore and younger ones not interested.

The DCT is great for older first time buyers who can afford the bigger more expensive bikes, but are not clutchers, and dealers need these guys business.

The majority of Wings I see in local inventories are DCTs and are is the preferred option according to the sales guys.

You are not exactly Honda's target.

This DCT strategy is working so well for Honda that the other guys are said to be coming soon with their own automatic boxes.
 
FWIW to quote MCN there are upgrades in 2025 to the DCT, and added semi active suspension (on DCT model) with 7% increased torque at a lower RPM. This is a European model, and I don't know if these changes came over here yet.

"Also new on the powertrain is a revised oil sensor for the DCT option – a small, but decisive tweak that makes shifts near-on seamless by making the oil pressure required to activate the twin clutches more precise for the conditions. Before, Honda say, the information presented could be delivered fractionally too slow, by which time overall conditions have changed and the clutch/gear actuation might not be optimal.

We didn’t experience anything to suggest they’ve not got it sorted now. Often, the only tell-tale is the gear position readout on the dash, or the discreet metallic clunk as the gears shift, or a change in exhaust tone. Up or down the gearbox, there’s no weird lag, surges or break in drive. Equally, the lean angle data from the IMU prevented it from making less-than-ideal mid-corner shifts."
 
ddemair said:
Yes, I'm sure that's true.

For me, what I meant by "afterthought", is that I know that I will develop habits. With a DCT, I would develop a habit of letting it do most of the shifting. Then, there would be rare occasions when I wanted to choose the gear myself, but it would be a very conscious decision and not the muscle memory I use now.

Or maybe I just like using a clutch and I'm just trying to rationalize it.
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You bring up an excellent discussion about how human learning is accomplished. In the beginning riding a motorcycle is an incredibly complicated task and all of it is done in the upper brain which takes a lot of energy and time. With sufficient practice (perfect practice makes perfect) complex muscle movements and mental calculations are integrated into stub programs that are stored in the lower brain and these stub programs can be pulled up and executed later without conscious thought. We can do these complicated tasks “without thinking” thus leaving the upper brain free to concentrate on other activities. Riding a motorcycle becomes something we do without conscious thought. If we begin to ride a motorcycle that has a different type of engine management system, transmission, or brake system and if you’re a good rider and you want to ride skillfully you learn how to use this new thing to best advantage. Remember all those guys that eschewed linked brakes in the 90s and 2000s? “I don’t want the motorcycle deciding which brake I want to use, I want complete 100% control over the brakes on either wheel!” Most of us learned how to ride bikes with linked brakes to proficient or even very high levels. With sufficient practice, again perfect practice, we develop habits. If all expect to you do is put it in Drive then twist and go that’s what you learn but if you have at hand a transmission that has a lot of options on how you’re going to use it you learn how to use it. For instance how you setup going into a corner and how you’re going to exit out you exploit what it offers. You probably won’t let it shift itself if the algorithm shifts differently than you prefer in that corner in that moment. You’ll override the anticipated shift or you’ll slip into full manual for a moment. If you practice this you’ll learn a new skill. If you’re a rider that rev matches your downshifts while trail braking to apex you’ll appreciate how the transmission handles the downshift smoothly every time every shift, letting you concentrate on braking and line. That will become a habit done at a subconscious level and done on future rides without thinking.
 
I have one section of road I incorporate into my return ride home most days, after a straight of about 1/2 mile it pitches downhill thru a series of pretty tight curves ... first right, then left then right continuing downhill to where it bottoms out followed by an uphill right-hand sweeper into a left at the top then a maybe 1/8th mile straightaway followed by another really sharp left. A really fun section of road to ride

On the DCT in standard auto mode I'll be in 6th gear coming down the long straight approaching the curves, allowing it to automatically shift to 5th using engine braking and scrubbing some speed for the first right, roll on the axis then punch the down shift paddle to drop it into 4th for the left, roll again and punch the paddle again dropping it into 3rd for the next sharp right, go into the dip apex and accelerate up the hill into the right hand sweeper, holding the throttle on which holds 3rd gear until near the crest the hill when it shifts into 4th before going into the next left and I let it shift into 5th on the next flat straight before punching the downshift paddle twice for the sharp 3rd gear left hander at the end of that short straight .

Same shift sequence I would do on my 6-speed manual shift CB 1100 if I were riding it that day.
 
This is the best DCT discussion I've seen to date. It's great to read seasoned first-hand experiences.

The few riders I know eschew DCT because the believe it to be the same as using traditional car's automatic transmission. I say there's the Man Card issue as well as believing manual shifting is a more immersive experience (that also further distances 'riders' from 'cagers').

The DCT seems like an excellent combination of manual or automatic shifting in a way traditional car A/Ts can't match.

I'm not keen on the looks of the NT. If I was or it looked more like I wanted I'd give up 200cc and almost as many pounds and be happy to do it. The ride height is about as high and I don't know if it feels as top heavy at the ST. Minus the extensive plastic I'd guess no.


The spec sheet from Honda.
 
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ST Gui said:
I'm not keen on the looks of the NT. If I was or it looked more like I wanted I'd give up 200cc and almost as many pounds and be happy to do it. The ride height is about as high and I don't know if it feels as top heavy at the ST. Minus the extensive plastic I'd guess no.
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For guys in our age group, they don't build good looking bikes anymore
 
I think it's an attractive bike for an attractive price. I was checking the specs and was surprised that there's no "Sport" mode. The modes are Tour, Urban, Rain, and two custom settings. I suppose you could program one of the available custom modes, but it seems like a no-brainer for a "sport touring" bike. Even the NC750X has a sport mode I believe. I'd consider a DCT if I could get a test ride but that's not likely.
 
RobbieAG said:
but it seems like a no-brainer for a "sport touring" bike.
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But two options to roll your own and 'dial in' your preferred mode is a big plus especially is someone still has a few reticent little gray cells saying don't let some algorithm tell you how to shift. :D
 
From my experience riding a 2018 GW:

In Full auto - shifts up prematurely. Shifts down late. (Typical to all auto trannys).
In Sport - Holding the gear for longer than I need before shifting up (good for track not for street). Abrupt downshifts.
Manual - Still downshifts by itself without my input if I go slower than it "thinks" for that gear. No feeling as I'm in control as with real manual.

I'd like to see if the 2025 works differently but have no confidence that it will be much or any different.

PS
CVT, DCT, SMG, ZF, GM... - are all automatic transitions with variations but I don't care really what's going on inside.
I see it being useful in traffic, in cities with lots of traffic lights and stop signs, or maybe at steep switchbacks of the Stelvio pass :)

But, hey, whatever rocks yr boat.
 
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