New Garmin Zumo XT

I wonder if like every other Garmin GPS it still ignores your "unpaved roads" avoidance...
Hi Lee:

When a GPS navigator (any brand) routes you down an unpaved road when you have "avoid unpaved roads" selected, it's a cartography database error, not an error on the part of the device or the route creation software within the device.

Any given road in a navigation database can have up to 60 invisible "road attributes" associated with it. These include things such as the speed limit, nature of the road surface, width of the road, weight-bearing capacity of the road (this is for truckers), seasonal weight restrictions, tolls, whether or not there is a median in the middle, whether the road is inside a tunnel, lane markings on the road (whether changing lanes is permitted or not) and other things like that.

The road attributes are part of the cartographic database, and whenever that database is updated (typically every 3 months for Europe and North America), road attributes are added and/or corrected.

The cartography providers obtain the road attributes in different ways. The preferred way, which is the most accurate way, is to actually drive the road with a vehicle similar to the Google Maps vehicles, and videotape the road. The drivers also make note of items that might not show up on the video, such as tolls.

Less commonly travelled roads are often incorporated into the cartography by air photo interpretation. This is usually where the "paved vs. not paved" errors occur, because it is difficult for the people doing the air photo interpretation to discern the nature of the road surface. All of the major cartography providers (HERE, who used to be called Navteq, Google, TeleAtlas, etc.) operate websites where users can report errors. When an error is reported, it usually gets corrected in the next update.

Michael
 
When a GPS navigator (any brand) routes you down an unpaved road when you have "avoid unpaved roads" selected, it's a cartography database error, not an error on the part of the device or the route creation software within the device.

Understand Michael, but as far as 3 month updates or aerial confirmation, the two paved roads I got literally stopped dead on have never been paved. Countless more times I have turned around and exited or suffered through the passages. After the last time I had to call for help with my BigFatPig stuck in a ditch, I resolved to reverse course as soon as the lie was known.

leroy%20down-M.jpg


No more "I think I can make it." My Garmin 395 took me on one today. I violated my own rule. You may well be correct, but I find it difficult to believe that that many roads are misidentified in the data sets. Garmin seems to do it routinely. It is constant. I may go out and hunt a dirt road it won't route me through with unpaved roads on avoid.

As a personal data point, there is a missing bridge near my home and Garmin tries to route everyone who visits me over it. The bridge was torn down before the GPS was even invented. As a curious fact, the missing bridge is one of my property corners. The county lost the land and the right of way after it was abandoned for 20 years and it went back to the original landowners. They'd have to re-condemn it to fix the bridge. That's how old it is. I reported the outage the only way I could find out how, which was though OSM. I did this after two moving vans from Rochester, NY came rolling through my property looking for Highway 191. I said "You have a Garmin, don't you?" He said "yes, I'm trying to find Hwy. 191." While he was out talking with me the brakes let go on his truck and it got airborne off the end of my driveway and hit the biggest tree on 40 acres. When he opened the back of the truck he had six new feet of trailer space because of the compacted load of furniture. The headlights of the truck were pointed at each other around the tree. He sat down on the grass and started crying. My sweet wife was patting him on the head and asking him if he wanted a sammich. He was OO and it was his truck and his company. Toast.

Here is the Google Earth view of the missing bridge. If you look at the satellite view and zoom it in, you can see that Phillips Road continued over Mason Mill Creek oh, about 40 foot tall trees ago.

Phillips Rd. @ E. Jones Chapel

On highest detail, you can see that Phillips Rd. and E. Jone Chapel never connect even with the ghosted track. Google maps and Waze do not try to route over Mason Mill Creek. None of my Android apps route over it. Garmin does.

I guess what I am saying is that Garmin is responsible for the data set they choose to use and they should use better data - it's out there. If I use Garmin I get the GIGO data that they subscribe to. If I use one of the Android apps I can use OSM data or Google Maps data and it will route properly. Someone told me that Garmin can use OSM maps too, but I never figured out how to do it. Maybe I could ask Itchy Boots how to do it in her comments section :).

The product has a nice bright 5" screen. It's waterproof. It's bump-proof. It's glove-friendly. It does cool things with phones and music and InReach. It is only three times as expensive as it should be instead of four times as expensive. What's not to like? Well, it is a navigator. Any navigator that dead-ends me half-way up a mountain grade in rocks the size of bowling balls with "uppaved roads avoid" checked is not a navigator. It is a toy. So, I was wondering if the new Garmin really was a navigator this time. I don't need a fancier toy.
 
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There definitely is no perfect GPS - I can't imagine how these huge databases are kept updated.

I frequently drive from where I live to Yuma, Az. for work. I use the OEM GPS in my 2018 company Ford Explorer to keep track of time mostly and also it provides relatively good traffic data. I always laugh because as I am about 60 mile from Yuma on Interstate 8 it always tries to route me off the freeway when the freeway takes you straight to Yuma. For about 25 miles it routes me off each exit that I come to. Just for laughs on my last trip I decided to take the exit just to see where it would take me. It took me a couple of miles off the highway in a big loop and right back to the freeway again. This totally surprised me. On my wife's brand new Volvo that we just purchased, the OEM GPS, while driving to Walnut Creek, would route you off an exit and then after coming to the stop at the end of the exit it would route you straight back onto the freeway again. It has done this twice now on the same road. I never treat a GPS as a completely accurate navigator but as a good reference and I usually have a good idea where I am going. Basically a GPS is just an electronic map and maps can be inaccurate as well as I have discovered many times. Usually even when making these strange routing decisions a GPS will eventually get you to where you want to go.

I would never trust one to tell me road conditions as that simply cannot be practically updated. I take that responsibility myself for deciding if the road I am traveling onto is acceptable to pass.
 
The on and off exit routing are not data problems, they are routing decision errors made by the routing software. Even if the distance was slightly shorter, the average speed through the ramps and traffic light should have made the main route the chosen route unless you picked distance over time. Road conditions are being done better and better by crowd data than by map tags. Waze finds often find cops in time to act. A radar detector? Not so much in these days of laser.
 
The on and off exit routing are not data problems, they are routing decision errors made by the routing software.
No, Lee, that is not correct.

The "on and off" the freeway problems that @bdalameda described are cartography problems. These kind of problems are caused by errors made when the operators who put the cartography together fail to ensure that roadway segments are properly joined together. As a result of these mistakes, the road appears (to the internal navigation software) to have a one-inch break in continuity, which is as good as a dead end so far as the navigation algorithms are concerned. Hence the re-routing off the main road and then back onto it later on.

I first encountered problems like this back in 2001 when I began beta-testing GPS units on motorcycles as a volunteer with Garmin - this was one of the things that was brought up in discussion at Garmin headquarters in the early 2000s when they held their first get-together of volunteer beta testers.

Basically, it's a cartography mistake that needs to be reported. This kind of problem happens in all cartography databases, it's not exclusive to Garmin, who I don't think make the GPS navigation equipment or database used in 2018 Ford Explorer trucks.

Michael
 
...from Yuma on Interstate 8 it always tries to route me off the freeway when the freeway takes you straight to Yuma. For about 25 miles it routes me off each exit that I come to. Just for laughs on my last trip I decided to take the exit just to see where it would take me. It took me a couple of miles off the highway in a big loop and right back to the freeway again. ...
Report it to Garmin: https://my.garmin.com/mapErrors/report.faces

The on and off exit routing are not data problems, they are routing decision errors made by the routing software. ...
Lee, all of those instances in all my Garmin devices have been a data problem. Whenever I've encountered this, I've submitted the map data error on Garmin's online form. They've fixed every one of them. The issue is that the road appears connected to your/my eye, but the road is literally not connected in their database--it is impossible for the routing software to route you through because in the data, the road is not continuous. This is most common at overpasses, however I've also found them in the middle of nowhere in wide open places.

I find them because I take roads I know are through-roads and the routing software recomputes the route numerous times, diligently working to get me around the logically disconnected road.

Edit: Sorry, not meant to dogpile. I just found that the same point was already made by JFH on another page of posts which I hadn't yet noticed.
 
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I called Garmin a few years back, to have them correct a problem when routing to my house. They routed on a 1/2 mile, potholed, one-lane road that looks like a shortcut, but it isn’t. It’s neither shorter or faster. I talked to the Garmin rep for about 30 minutes, while he looked at aerial views and Google Street View and agreed that street shouldn’t be used for routing. I had to explain that the street was 1/4 mile from my house and no one took that route, unless they lived on that street. Sure enough, they fixed it on the next update........Wait, they’re more. On the later update, it’s back.

Apple Maps, Google maps, Honda Nav, and Waze don’t use that street, but Sygic will. So, I apologize to the riders that come to visit.

John
 
Apple Maps, Google maps, Honda Nav, and Waze don’t use that street, but Sygic will. So, I apologize to the riders that come to visit.

Different cartography organizations use different strategies for collecting map data, and each strategy has both advantages and disadvantages. Here's a quick overview of the concepts:

Waze, Google & TomTom use "crowd-sourced" data to update their cartography. When you drive with these applications active, they return your travel path and some characteristics associated with your travel history (for example, your speed along roadway segments) to central servers. The servers then use that information to create and display traffic flow information. In addition to that, longer-term automated analysis of travel patterns reveals changes to road layouts - detours, new roundabouts created, identification of dead-end roads and road closures, and so forth - that are then automatically incorporated into the cartography on a daily basis. Hence these maps tend to be more up-to-date, but the downside is that you need a data connection (cell phone connection) when driving to use them, and there are costs associated with transmitting and receiving that data in real time.

OSM (Open Street Maps) also uses crowd-sourced data, but not data sourced in real time. Numerous volunteer contributors document the presence and pathways of roads, and this information is added to future releases. John mentioned that OSM maps generally don't have speed limit data - this is because the volunteer contributors don't know how to add road attributes to the new roadways that they create. To a certain extent, that's a good thing, because although everyone can see the roadways present on OSM and decide for themselves if that information is credible, it is not possible for end users to view and verify road attributes.

Proprietary cartography companies (HERE, TeleAtlas, etc.) collect their own road and road attribute data by a variety of means - driving the roads, air photo interpretation, sourcing data from governments - and they add road attributes to that data. These organizations typically release new map versions quarterly or twice a year (sometimes only annually for OEM subscribers, such as auto manufacturers). The weak point in this model is that if there is an error in the database (a wrongly characterized road, such as a dirt road identified as paved), or a careless error in joining map segments that results in a break in a roadway, that error hangs around until the next release of an update, assuming someone reports it to the cartography provider. If no-one reports it, the error hangs around forever.

It's not possible to say "this one method is the best". It's a horses-for-courses kind of decision. For urban riding in heavily populated areas of developed countries, the Waze, Google, & TomTom model works best because it provides rapid traffic & detour updates. For rural riding where the user doesn't want to use a cell phone connection, the proprietary maps stored within the device (HERE, TeleAtlas, etc., such as Garmin and automotive OEMs use) are probably best. For serious off-road riding in remote areas, OSM maps that have been created by enthusiasts who have been there and done that are probably most accurate.

For what it's worth, here in Tunisia, I'm using TomTom maps offline (no data connection). The country has great cell coverage (4G everywhere), but it's pointless to waste the data connecting because none of the locals use TomTom maps, hence, there is no data returned to update the maps. If I had a dirt bike and wanted to venture out into the desert, I'd switch over to OSM maps created by dirt bike riders, because the "commercial" maps have no coverage at all of off-road tracks or trails.

Michael
 
OSM (Open Street Maps) also uses crowd-sourced data, but not data sourced in real time. Numerous volunteer contributors document the presence and pathways of roads, and this information is added to future releases.
I'm on OSM for a couple of years now, basically since Garmin changed to the NT format not compatible with my device (Quest I :cool:), IMHO really accurate material though...
But it's always the question how much one "depends" and is "obligated" to blindly follow that little screen there...
I for one got no use for overboarded features like "curvy roads" or "adventure modes" (nor all the bugs and trouble those functions bear), as the satnav is only an assistant for the route I have plotted, hence I'm in charge while moving down the road, and cannot blame responsibillity on some thingy on my dash...
 
But it's always the question how much one "depends" and is "obligated" to blindly follow that little screen there...
It would be nice to be able to depend on the route provided by the device to be executable and constructed in accordance with the criteria given by the user. Not that one is "obligated to follow that little screen" but in order for it to be a trustworthy tool rather than a toy. Currently it is a helpful toy, but not to be relied upon.
I for one got no use for overboarded features like "curvy roads" or "adventure modes" (nor all the bugs and trouble those functions bear),
I have less use for the lawyerly features that warn me to slow down for every turn and can't be turned off. The audio warning can be silenced, but not the warning flag. Anyone who is looking at "that little screen" to know if there is a curve coming up in the road is truly in over their head. Regarding the "curvy roads" feature, it is laughable. I had that mode set yesterday out local riding and for "curvy roads" it wanted to take me off into a lap of a subdivision and deposit me back on the same road 100 yards down. Thanks Garmin. That looks like a very fulfilling side trip.
...as the satnav is only an assistant for the route I have plotted, hence I'm in charge while moving down the road, and cannot blame responsibillity on some thingy on my dash...
No doubt who is pilot in command of the final outcome. Just looking for trustworthy tools. It is like they are selling a compass that sometimes points east and sometimes points north and we are supposed to know not to trust it. And it's not their fault - the company they buy the compass needles from has process errors so the needles they use are not uniformly magnetic. How about one that fulfills its basic stated function?. Right now such as that does not appear to be on the market - especially from Garmin.
 
I find the odd anomaly with routing, but mostly solved by my creation of the route on a computer with an adequate number of via or waypoints, to ensure it is going to go where I want to go, and let me be able to disable the auto recalculate feature. Curvy roads is laughable at times, why have it, I dunno. I too think it is getting a bit ridiculous with warnings to slow down in a curve, etc.... darn well better be able to shut those off or I ain't buyin' it. User reports on the XT please. Again, I wish Garmin would put out a survey to motorcycle users (as alledgedly they did when developing the 550) and ask us what we want or don't want. The GPS business is dwindling, why not revive it with a well thought out product that people want....
 
It would be nice to be able to depend on the route provided by the device to be executable and constructed in accordance with the criteria given by the user.
Observing all the flaws and complaints since the launch of the very first ZUMO series...
Seems I'm just too old fashioned for this all... I run some (paper) maps, a netbook with MapSource on, an old, totally "dumb" Quest-I unit, which does exactly what it's told, it's just too plain to run amok in weird recalculations ;)
 
...I have less use for the lawyerly features that warn me to slow down for every turn and can't be turned off. The audio warning can be silenced, but not the warning flag. Anyone who is looking at "that little screen" to know if there is a curve coming up in the road is truly in over their head. Regarding the "curvy roads" feature, it is laughable. I had that mode set yesterday out local riding and for "curvy roads" it wanted to take me off into a lap of a subdivision and deposit me back on the same road 100 yards down. Thanks Garmin. That looks like a very fulfilling side trip...
First, you can turn off the audible portion of the warnings on the 595LM.

Second, my experience with the "Curvy Roads" feature is also laughable. In fact, it may have sent me through the same housing subdivision. :D TomTom's Winding Roads feature does a far better job. I used it on the smartphone app version. A good way to test this on any GPS with a similar feature, is to pick a destination that you're familiar with and see what route the GPS takes you on to get there.

Chris
 
After much fussing with tape to get the position and powering the Zumo with its USB port, this is the installation I finally accepted. I drilled one hole in the right bar and used the ball mechanism that came with the device. There is still some tape under the mounting mechanism but I will get rid of that in time to make it look cleaner.

This was an exercise in compromise. I didtn really want to drill a hole in the bar but it seemed like a small accommodation. I didnt really need the entire mounting mechanism but couldnt find an adequate replacement. I could have replaced the bar back with one that had a ball in it already but I have a bar back mechanism already and I like the bar placement. Also - I figured that if I screw up the installation and need to replace the right handlebar it would cost me about $200 - I saw this as a low probability event. The only thing remaining is to run permanent power to the GPS. Yet to come....
 

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Hi Mark:

That looks like a very nice installation, my compliments.

One suggestion for you - perhaps put some duct tape on top of the fuel tank directly below the Zumo, until you have used it for a few weeks and are certain that it won't become loose, move out of position, and then ding the painted fuel tank when the handlebars are moved. A more attractive way of (temporarily) protecting the top of the fuel tank might be to go to a local company that installs clear paint protection film on the front of cars, and ask them if they have about a 6 inch square scrap that they would give to you or sell to you.

Either way, I'd protect the tank area for at least a couple of weeks until you have full confidence in the stability of the device.

Michael
 
Your riser looks to be tapped for a RAM mount ball. Why didn't you just install one of those? No drilling, no permanent scars, no fuss, no muss.
 
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