BakerBoy
It's all small stuff.
Inside the pumpkin, use the proper gear oil.
But for splines, use Moly 60 Paste if you've got it, or 60% Moly-disulfide paste equivalents: https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?154158-Moly-spline-grease
M77 Replaces Moly 60- Apparently So
- Thread starter Andrew Shadow
- Start date
Inside the pumpkin, use the proper gear oil.
But for splines, use Moly 60 Paste if you've got it, or 60% Moly-disulfide paste equivalents: https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?154158-Moly-spline-grease
Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
I've been using it (Loctite version) for at least 50,000 miles or so on each of the three ST1100s with no problems as of yet. It's been so long since I've seen a tube of the original M60 I can't remember when I made the switch but it's been years.
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Yes, we have been told here many times "the Honda engineers know what's best, who are we to question their authority?"
So let's take that wise advice, and to avoid further confusion, refer to the official Honda (Canada?) bulletin that Andrew attached. That document clearly specifies the proper terminologies to be used. See the enlarged, highlighted text from Andrew's attachment for reference. After viewing that document we should all be very clear on the specifics of grease and paste in the context of this topic.
Now, let's not be too hard on the Honda advice, after all, when you only make the new M77 moly grease, but then advertise it as a replacement for the well known moly paste, its easy to get the terminology confused, right???
Oh, wait, now what's this?????
So M77 is M77 is M77, or is it???
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I still have a great quantity of Honda Moly 60, so I have not used anything else. However, should I need to, I will be buying the Loctite version.
One thing I found interesting when I was searching online, last night, was that Dow Corning, in one of their SDS literature had a paragraph about storage/shelf life of their high content MoS2 product of 60 months (5yrs.). It got me wondering how long my Honda Moly 60 will be good for, as I've had both tubes for over 5yrs.
Thanks for your concern for the thread.....
I'm not confused at all. My tube does say grease, but the part # is listed as paste, just like the PDF says?? My honda dealership called it paste and now the guys like Larry who repair them is saying it's not the right stuff to use. I'm good, I'm just hoping the rest of you get it right??
If the tube, made by/for the manufacturer of the product says 'grease', then I would tend to believe that rather than a parts fiche that Honda wants to say 'paste' on.
Kevcules
Site Supporter
True enough....
I don't have an issue with the terminology listed. What I have an issue with is that the term grease as used in the Service Manual, refers to an MoS2 content of more than 3%. Where as, paste refers to an MoS2 content of more than 40%. The tube of Honda M77 Assembly Paste does not conform to the MoS2 content of the Service Manual.Yes, we have been told here many times "the Honda engineers know what's best, who are we to question their authority?"
So let's take that wise advice, and to avoid further confusion, refer to the official Honda (Canada?) bulletin that Andrew attached. That document clearly specifies the proper terminologies to be used. See the enlarged, highlighted text from Andrew's attachment for reference. After viewing that document we should all be very clear on the specifics of grease and paste in the context of this topic.
Please note that the picture in your posting is stated as grease, not paste.
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Jeez I'm glad I still have an almost full tube of the ol' Moly 60!! I think I need to go give it a wee hug!
Kevcules
Site Supporter
Lubing the splines was one of the recommendations I got when I bought the bike last September.....see link below as to what Honda gave me.....The PDF says its ok....I may remove the rear tire soon to take a peak at the splines.....See post 23
https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?154811-2008-ST1300-rear-wheel-maintenace/page3
https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?154811-2008-ST1300-rear-wheel-maintenace/page3
Kevin, you did not ask me, so I'll muddy the waters a bit. Somebody posted this in the last Moly thread. Check this out: LINKY to yet another Moly PASTE
The stuff looks good to me, but what do I know. Dinged if I know why Larry spent $1400 for a new final drive when they are available used on eBay for a lot less. I picked one up for $100 that has been fine so far. If someone on the site has used chassis grease regularly for over 100K miles with no reported wear, I would think Larry's customer applied the M-77 once and nevermore. Regardless, I'll use my OEM tube of Moly Paste until I run out (not likely in this lifetime) and either the linked Paste or another one if I do use up that tube. I've said this before, I was taught that Assembly Lube is for coating wear surfaces such as crank journals when assembling an engine or other machinery. It is designed to wash away with oil leaving no deposits. I would never use it as a substitute for Moly Paste. YMMV
A
Larry did a smear test on various pastes: The pics are below:
The result for the Larry's Honda M60 paste did not match with my own test - below. The smear on the left is the Honda M60, the smear on the right is the Rocol Dry Moly Paste. This felt very much the same consistency as the M60, but dragged a tiny bit more when smearing in a circular motion with my finger. The spec for the Belray is here.
John, I'm all for testing but I'm not familiar with a 'smear test'? Not to be facetious or disrespectful, what does this tell us? How can Larry's finger possibly be the equal of yours? Or v. versa. His test was on a metal plate, yours on a painted (steel?) tin. About all I would say from said test is that the compounds are roughly the same color when compared side by side, and different (due to photography?) on two sides of the pond.
In the picture its stated as grease 2 times and paste 3 times, so is it paste or grease??
If you look at the Dow Corning M-77 data sheet for the M77 assembly paste (which may or may not be what's actually in the Honda M77 assembly paste) it says:
Generic Description: Molybdenum disulfide grease
Physical Form: Paste
So its possible that paste and grease may be used somewhat interchangeably depending on whether or not you're using the "Generic Description".
FWIW, the molycote M-77 paste claims to have 55-75% moly content. If that's what's actually in the Honda M77 tubes (with either the generic grease naming, or paste naming on the label) then that would suggest it has the proper moly content for the job, and may be why Honda is recommending it as a direct replacement for the old moly 60.
But, Larry's empirical evidence might suggest otherwise.
I'll agree to that!
We don't have any proof that the new Honda M77 is made by Dow Corning, or that Dow Cornings M-77 has the same contents as Honda's M77. I have yet to see an SDS, TDS or MSDS on Honda's M77 Assembly Paste. If I were given the choice between using Honda's M77 or Dow Corning's M-77, I'd choose Dow Corning's. I, for one, will not be using Honda's M77 Assembly Paste where the Service Manual calls for molybdenum disulfide paste.
Ahh the plot thickens. And we wonder why attorneys split hairs 12 ways?
OP
OP
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
Unknown as of yet. I tried to beg, borrow, buy, steal one of the Moly 60 tubes from the mechanics at the Honda dealer but they weren't giving them up- they joked that they could sell them for a tidy sum on E-Bay. They kindly offered to give me some from their tube so that I could lube my splines however.
ReSTored
Site Supporter
Boy, 35 posts in less than a day. Nothing gets the troops fired up like a Moly 60 replacement thread.
OP
OP
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
As a point of reference to anyone reading this thread this is Honda P/N 08798-9010CH and is labeled as Honda Moly 77 GREASE. This is NOT the same as the previous M-77 that Honda sold and which had the Honda colours, logo and branding on the labels and that was probably manufactured by Dow Corning. This is NOT the Dow Corning Molykote 77 so referencing the Dow Corning composition and MSDS will be of little value. This is actually manufactured by a competitor of Dow Corning. This product is packaged for Honda by PloySi Technologies in North Carolina. All that I have found to date is that their own P/N for this product might be PST-77. After a very quick look I have not found any MSDS under the Honda P/N or at the PolySi website. This company seems to specialize in custom formulations made to customer's request. It could be possible that Honda switched suppliers to this company because they could custom order and procure from them one product that meets all of the Honda specified molybdenum disulfide application requirements. The Honda document that I attached in post # 1 refers to this product as the New Moly 77 Paste. It is possible that this product meets the final drive spline requirements- or possibly not. Without an MSDS or some additional information there is no way to know what the specifications or its composition is so we are no further ahead.
So in short.... I have nothing!
So in short.... I have nothing!
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To clear up some of the muddy waters....Larry didn't spend $1,400 dollars for a final drive, this was a price of a new part from Honda. The pumpkin was replaced because the male splines, as well as the female splines were toast, and I didn't have the tools to rebuild the rear driveshaft assembly, and measure all the gears and stuff. The owner did find a used one on ebay that a local shop was parting out that happened to be his year, a mated set, and very low mileage unit with no damage.
The so called smear test, was a conversation between John and I talking about the different colors of Moly 60 from Honda Moly 60 tubes.
As far as the term assembly lube, I agree, most assembly lubes are designed to wash away with oil leaving no deposits behind, However, I have been using the Bel-Ray stuff for the last 10 years or so, on my personal bike, and have had very good results, no wear, and always find it still in place 10,000 miles later when I go to change the rear tire. This is what Bel Ray recommended for use on DRIVESHAFT SPLINES, as well as U-Joints, and other very heavy duty operations back when I started using it.
My original container did not have the words assembly lube on the bottle. The spec sheet they emailed me years ago indicated that it had 42-45% moly solids in it. (this may have changed) but I have a couple bottles of it, and have enough to last a lifetime.
Now, to muddy up the water even more....I recently talked to a couple upper end service folks at very reputable dealerships, who work on the ST1300's alot, and the question of "could Honda have received the wrong paste, in the normal tubes" etc.
This was asked because of the color difference etc. It was suggested that perhaps someone "may have done that" and then when they figured out there was a problem, they pulled all the Honda products, and scrambled to sell something else (M77).
This is all speculation....but after talking to John, and seeing the difference in colors between his Honda Moly 60 tube, my Honda Moly 60 tube, and my older Honda Moly 60 tube, we found we had THREE different colors...
Just made me question this even more....
The dealership had just mounted a fresh set of OEM tires on his bike, and claimed that the splines were perfect, and that they used the approved Honda M77 paste/grease as directed.
The so called smear test, was a conversation between John and I talking about the different colors of Moly 60 from Honda Moly 60 tubes.
As far as the term assembly lube, I agree, most assembly lubes are designed to wash away with oil leaving no deposits behind, However, I have been using the Bel-Ray stuff for the last 10 years or so, on my personal bike, and have had very good results, no wear, and always find it still in place 10,000 miles later when I go to change the rear tire. This is what Bel Ray recommended for use on DRIVESHAFT SPLINES, as well as U-Joints, and other very heavy duty operations back when I started using it.
My original container did not have the words assembly lube on the bottle. The spec sheet they emailed me years ago indicated that it had 42-45% moly solids in it. (this may have changed) but I have a couple bottles of it, and have enough to last a lifetime.
Now, to muddy up the water even more....I recently talked to a couple upper end service folks at very reputable dealerships, who work on the ST1300's alot, and the question of "could Honda have received the wrong paste, in the normal tubes" etc.
This was asked because of the color difference etc. It was suggested that perhaps someone "may have done that" and then when they figured out there was a problem, they pulled all the Honda products, and scrambled to sell something else (M77).
This is all speculation....but after talking to John, and seeing the difference in colors between his Honda Moly 60 tube, my Honda Moly 60 tube, and my older Honda Moly 60 tube, we found we had THREE different colors...
Just made me question this even more....
The dealership had just mounted a fresh set of OEM tires on his bike, and claimed that the splines were perfect, and that they used the approved Honda M77 paste/grease as directed.
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John and I have calibrated our fingers
I trust John's finger more than any Honda Rep's finger
It appears that the P/N 08798-9010 (without the CH suffix) is possibly the same as Dow molycote M-77. The ingredients listed are identical to those listed in the M-77 data sheet in the second image, although the Honda package doesn't specify the percentages of each like the data sheet does.
I would agree with you that the new CH suffix in the part number would seem to indicate that something has changed, but as you say, its anybody's guess as to what's in the new formulation. To confuse things even more, here's another M77 Honda variation that existed at some time:
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