Lights stay on when ignition switch in Off, bike won't start
- Thread starter David P
- Start date
Interesting answers here. An intermittent ground could cause complex and not easily-diagnosed problems. I had ruled out a ground problem since (apparently) the ground cap recall had been performed, but it might be worth it to verify the ground connection personally. Question for everyone: can you get to this area without removing the upper gas tank?
A few weeks ago I took apart both sides of the bike and disconnected and inspected every plug and cable bundle that went to the handlebars. I also took apart the left side handlebar switch to look for problems with the dimmer switch contacts. No rubbing or abrasion problems in the wiring or switch, and only slight debris buildup in the connector that supplies the hazard and clutch switches. After cleaning and lubricating the connector the problem appears to have gone away, although I'm not declaring victory yet.
Another potential issue could be one of the headlight relays that does not completely pick up. My problem went away when the battery was fully charged, in fact the relay click rate changed with battery voltage. I'm thinking that a relay could be starting to fail. We'll see what happens.
A few weeks ago I took apart both sides of the bike and disconnected and inspected every plug and cable bundle that went to the handlebars. I also took apart the left side handlebar switch to look for problems with the dimmer switch contacts. No rubbing or abrasion problems in the wiring or switch, and only slight debris buildup in the connector that supplies the hazard and clutch switches. After cleaning and lubricating the connector the problem appears to have gone away, although I'm not declaring victory yet.
Another potential issue could be one of the headlight relays that does not completely pick up. My problem went away when the battery was fully charged, in fact the relay click rate changed with battery voltage. I'm thinking that a relay could be starting to fail. We'll see what happens.
An update to give hope to others. After my last post the bike eventually had the fault reoccur and went to the dealers who fitted an earth recall kit to the earth connector under the tank - well at the rear of the engine really. This proved effective for a few months but the troubles returned in January 2012 (approx 1200 miles later). At which point I returned to the seperate earth connector located just above the right hand headlamp (as you are sitting on the bike). This connector has approx 18 earth wires leading to it and the multimeter showed the earth was 'variable' at best for some of the connections. It is the large yellow connector block and is pretty obvious when you have taken all of the plastic parts and headlamp off the front of the bike. The connector block was dismantled by levering open the top lid - and the earth bar was removed. Given that both the earth blocks were now problems I removed this earth block and crimped new ring connectors on the end of the wires and used a bolt to hold them together. Crude but cheap and effective. I also added a new earth wire running from the battery to this earth block.
It took a few hours but has removed the dodgy earth block and has worked fine for the last has to 2 months and 2300 miles. I am 100% convinced this was my original problem as whilst the dealer fitted the earth recall kit to the other earth he really thought it looked fine previously. Actually the wiring harness at the front of the bike wasn't too expensive to replace if this wasn't the fix. But I'm mobile again and the bike is reliable.
Keep riding...
It took a few hours but has removed the dodgy earth block and has worked fine for the last has to 2 months and 2300 miles. I am 100% convinced this was my original problem as whilst the dealer fitted the earth recall kit to the other earth he really thought it looked fine previously. Actually the wiring harness at the front of the bike wasn't too expensive to replace if this wasn't the fix. But I'm mobile again and the bike is reliable.
Keep riding...
woodybelle
Site Supporter
Thanks for posting, it can be so helpful to the rest of us. I am glad for you, it must feel so much better to have her reliable again. You are a patient man.
The problem solved (I'm pretty sure)
To continue my story, following my repairs I thought I had solved the problem last summer. Not to be: the bike failed again that fall and wouldn't restart with the same symptoms. I finally took it in and had the dealer look at it; after ~2 hours of troubleshooting they found an intermittent ground problem in the wiring harness. Rather than redo the harness they just added a new ground wire. That was last fall: the bike has run fine since then and I ride all year (it's Florida, folks).
The repair location was in the 24-pin wire plug ground wire on the left front of the bike: this is the plug that connects the bike wire harness to most handlebar electrics. Apparently the green ground wire from the plug back to the battery/frame has an intermittent open somewhere. The dealer spliced a new wire into the bike's ground wire and connected it to the frame at the left-side ignition coil mounting bolt. I've attached pictures that show that area of the bike and the new ground connection. Not the best electrical splice job I've seen, but it seems to work.
According to the dealer's service techs, any time they see snaky electrical problems they check the ground connections. Rereading my and other people's posts, bad ground connections seem to be the final answer. The Honda ground cap recall may just be an early fix to this problem. Higher mileage motorcycles may be more susceptible to harness wear and intermittent wire failures. Adding a new ground connection (like my and clementm's bikes) seems to be the solution.
To continue my story, following my repairs I thought I had solved the problem last summer. Not to be: the bike failed again that fall and wouldn't restart with the same symptoms. I finally took it in and had the dealer look at it; after ~2 hours of troubleshooting they found an intermittent ground problem in the wiring harness. Rather than redo the harness they just added a new ground wire. That was last fall: the bike has run fine since then and I ride all year (it's Florida, folks).
The repair location was in the 24-pin wire plug ground wire on the left front of the bike: this is the plug that connects the bike wire harness to most handlebar electrics. Apparently the green ground wire from the plug back to the battery/frame has an intermittent open somewhere. The dealer spliced a new wire into the bike's ground wire and connected it to the frame at the left-side ignition coil mounting bolt. I've attached pictures that show that area of the bike and the new ground connection. Not the best electrical splice job I've seen, but it seems to work.
According to the dealer's service techs, any time they see snaky electrical problems they check the ground connections. Rereading my and other people's posts, bad ground connections seem to be the final answer. The Honda ground cap recall may just be an early fix to this problem. Higher mileage motorcycles may be more susceptible to harness wear and intermittent wire failures. Adding a new ground connection (like my and clementm's bikes) seems to be the solution.
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Re: The problem solved (I'm pretty sure)
Subscribed, great thread. mine has had the recall done, but only checked not replaced . But next time I have the tupper ware off all the ground will get a going over.
Bob
Subscribed, great thread. mine has had the recall done, but only checked not replaced . But next time I have the tupper ware off all the ground will get a going over.
Bob
This is exactly what is happening to my '05 bike now. I can only add that I noticed the high beam switch was sticking a couple weeks ago. The rest of David's symptoms started last night but after some time, I got it started. I can not get the bike started today. I'm wondering which area to check first, the ground block near the headlight or on the left side.
Before replacing my ignition switch last summer, I had this occur two or three times. It usually cleared up by turning it off and back on. Since replacing the switch, I haven't had any issues.
My fix was the same as DavidP's. The same wire was fried. Had melted the white plastic connector around the wire too. I spliced in a new wire. I wonder why the wire fried.
Hmmm, I have been having the same problem on my 03. Turning the ignition on and off does not fix it, thumbing the kill switch does not fix it, Disconnecting the RED connector on the right side of the frame ( the connector to the right handlebar switch) seems to fix it but not always. Disconnecting the battery will only get the lights off.
I have followed every lead posted here only to come up with the same problem.
Any idea as to why unplugging the red connector and then reconnecting it seems to work most of the time? She cranks right up once I do this and then runs great but ever so often I turn her off, then crank it over without her starting, turn the ing switch off and the lights stay on, takes a battery disconnect to get the stuff off, then I have to disconnect the red connector and reconnect it then she fires right up.
You guys have any more ideas other than a wiring harness change?
Mike
I have followed every lead posted here only to come up with the same problem.
Any idea as to why unplugging the red connector and then reconnecting it seems to work most of the time? She cranks right up once I do this and then runs great but ever so often I turn her off, then crank it over without her starting, turn the ing switch off and the lights stay on, takes a battery disconnect to get the stuff off, then I have to disconnect the red connector and reconnect it then she fires right up.
You guys have any more ideas other than a wiring harness change?
Mike
Check the ground wire that David P showed in his photos. It's on the back corner of the white connector.
I did David P's fix. Rode the ST for three nights.
This am same problem returned.
Thumbing the "on-off" switch did not reset the relays. turning the key "on-off" does not reset the relays or turn off the lights....until now it was a battery disconnect to get the lights off and disconnecting the 9 pin red connector of the right switch then the ole girl would fire up.
I disconnected and reconnected the 24 pin, this got the lights off but the bike would not cycle the fuel pump. next I disconected the 9pin red connector from the right switch, this reset the relays. I then reconnected the red 9 pin and she fired right up.
SO I am back to square one with my ST.
I have a 2007 harness available so I may just change it out and be done with it but I would sure like to discover the fix for this before I do that.
I do not have the confidence in the ST for the summer trips. Pulling the plastic off on the road side is no fun at all.
You guys have ideas???
I am thinking left switch/ bad relay/continued ground issue or a short energizing the relays.
Mike
This am same problem returned.
Thumbing the "on-off" switch did not reset the relays. turning the key "on-off" does not reset the relays or turn off the lights....until now it was a battery disconnect to get the lights off and disconnecting the 9 pin red connector of the right switch then the ole girl would fire up.
I disconnected and reconnected the 24 pin, this got the lights off but the bike would not cycle the fuel pump. next I disconected the 9pin red connector from the right switch, this reset the relays. I then reconnected the red 9 pin and she fired right up.
SO I am back to square one with my ST.
I have a 2007 harness available so I may just change it out and be done with it but I would sure like to discover the fix for this before I do that.
I do not have the confidence in the ST for the summer trips. Pulling the plastic off on the road side is no fun at all.
You guys have ideas???
I am thinking left switch/ bad relay/continued ground issue or a short energizing the relays.
Mike
So, was your ground wire fried on either connector?? Mine was. I just spliced in a jumper wire above and below the connector. I did not wire to the coil ground. I'm guessing it's my heated grips running through the quartet harness that was overloading the ground wire. Next time I go in there I'll run a separate ground wire for the heated grips.
Ground wire issues seem to the most common source of quirky indications/symptoms. Try running a special ground wire from the bike frame to the large yellow ground block in the upper right hand side of the fairing. That should eliminate any ground issues at the handlebar/bike wiring connectors, or further downstream in the main bike wiring harness.
If it's a power problem, that should be relatively easy to find with a multimeter and some time. Return problems are more difficult, as you can see. Make sure you post your solution to help other people.
If it's a power problem, that should be relatively easy to find with a multimeter and some time. Return problems are more difficult, as you can see. Make sure you post your solution to help other people.
Okay Guys, I waited to post this to be sure the issue did not reproduce itself.
I applied the ground fix to the headlights. Six months now without a hickup.
I ran a ground wire from each headlight ground terminal to the battery, before this I had replaced all the ground connectors, cleaned every terminal, pretty much did everything but change the wiring harness and I have one on standby for just in case.
Mike
I applied the ground fix to the headlights. Six months now without a hickup.
I ran a ground wire from each headlight ground terminal to the battery, before this I had replaced all the ground connectors, cleaned every terminal, pretty much did everything but change the wiring harness and I have one on standby for just in case.
Mike
STDaveNW
Dave
Revisit my original thread. My 2004 ST1300, The bike has sat in my shop for 21/2 years while I rode my Triumph Sprint St, and a C-14. Seemed to run fine so I reassembled it and off I went.
Refresher for issue is turn key on, no lights, neutral and another dash light on. NO FUEL pump. Turn bike off and marker lights stay on, only way to get them to go off is pull battery. Two days into my run. Hotel in Buckley WA bike wont start same problem. This time after removing all the plastic I tried a few different things.
1) Reset battery. Disconnect Quartet Harness Same problem.
2) Reset battery. Disconnect red/Black plugs from LH switch control. Bike fired! AH HA Tried each plug on and off and with both unplugged bike fires, with either one plugged in bike wont fire.
3) That leaves Horn, flashers, HI/Low, windscreen switches.
4) Pulled horn fuse no luck.
5) Pulled windscreen fuse no luck.
6) pulled one of the two headlight fuses and bike fired
7) pulled the other headlight fuse bike fired.
Bike has stayed running with all fuses back in place but feel its in the headlight circuit.
Still a killer for me is the marker lights being on with key off.
Refresher for issue is turn key on, no lights, neutral and another dash light on. NO FUEL pump. Turn bike off and marker lights stay on, only way to get them to go off is pull battery. Two days into my run. Hotel in Buckley WA bike wont start same problem. This time after removing all the plastic I tried a few different things.
1) Reset battery. Disconnect Quartet Harness Same problem.
2) Reset battery. Disconnect red/Black plugs from LH switch control. Bike fired! AH HA Tried each plug on and off and with both unplugged bike fires, with either one plugged in bike wont fire.
3) That leaves Horn, flashers, HI/Low, windscreen switches.
4) Pulled horn fuse no luck.
5) Pulled windscreen fuse no luck.
6) pulled one of the two headlight fuses and bike fired
7) pulled the other headlight fuse bike fired.
Bike has stayed running with all fuses back in place but feel its in the headlight circuit.
Still a killer for me is the marker lights being on with key off.
I had the same problem on the way to NatStoc in 2012. The dealer near Omaha Nebraska found a major connection in the wiring harness had fried, melted. The place in question was below the throttle body. I saw it when they replaced it. The stealer also said there was a recall on the harness in 04. Next thinking the issue was repaired in Omaha, it happened to me again about a week after I got back to Tennessee. I found that the battery was bad, apparently not enough amps to work the relays correctly, the fuel pump would not come on and the lights would stay on, just like your description. I replaced it and I have not had any other issues. Replace the battery! before you rip out the wiring harness.
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I did what CLEMENTM did above
When you remove this ground cap plug, look inside for any of the connections that look melted. I think the ground wire from the headlights was the one that overheated on me.
I cut the plug out and put eyelets on each wire. Then bought 2 brass bolts and some 16 gauge wire. Put the bolt though the eyelets and then joined the all together to ground.
Apparently the green ground wire from the plug back to the battery/frame has an intermittent open somewhere. I spliced a new wire into the bike's ground wire and connected it to the frame at a couple of locations.
Never seen the problem occur since I have done this.
Best of luck
Al
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