Extended High Idle

Smallville

Scott
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Fort Scott, Kansas
Bike
2022 KLR 650 Adv
My 2008 ST1300 with 50K miles on it has and extended high idle when cold.
It will high idle past one bar till almost two bars are showing on the gauge.

I have taken the coolant lines off and flushed the lines and wax valve. All are clear.
I'm leaning towards a bad wax valve.
Has anyone replaced one or had one go bad?
Just not something I have heard of, so I wanted to see if anyone else has had one go bad.

Thanks
 
I had the wax module blocked with trash at 600 miles on a new 2012. The Honda dealer flushed the system and I have had no problems since. Mine would harden the wax in cold weather and would leave the bike at high RPM when drive at highway speed. Riding at slow speeds the engine temp stayed high enough to allow the wax to melt. But coming off the Interstate the engine would stay at the highest RPM that I went to causing me to hit the kill switch at the stop light.
 
What is the Wax Valve? I've never heard of this, and I'm in this forum nearly every day.
But I did have a very high idle when I started the bike recently in cold (35 deg F) weather.
The bike would idle up to 4K for a two or three minutes, then slowly go back to normal idle as it warmed up.
I was running the bike in this cold to test my new MCCruise install - don't normally start the bike at all over the winter.
 
What is the Wax Valve? I've never heard of this, and I'm in this forum nearly every day.
It is a small, very difficult to find component attached to the throttle body. It is a cylinder about the size of a large bullet that has a little shaft coming out of it. It is filled with wax that is solid at 'cold' engine temperatures but melts once the coolant warms up. Coolant circulates around this little cylinder, supplied by two small hoses.

The purpose of the wax valve ("Wax Assembly", in Honda-speak, PN 16044-MCW-003) is to keep the engine at a high idle speed when it is cold, this to ensure fast warm-up of both the engine and the catalytic converters, then allow the engine to slow down to normal idle speed once the coolant has warmed up.

Pray that your wax assembly does not fail, because it is a huge job to disassemble the motorcycle to get to it. The throttle bodies have to be removed to replace it. Fortunately, failure of this component is rare.

A picture of it is below.

Michael

Wax Assembly
236679
 
One would think that an electronically-controlled fuel-injected engine wouldn't need such a mechanical device.
I am surprised that they used this as well. Electronically controlled cold start idle speeds have been on cars since at least the early eighties. I find it surprising that Honda would go with this set up on an engine with electronically controlled fuel delivery.
Sounds like an emissions item that should be removed if it fails?
I suspect that if it was removed the engine would not continue to run after a cold start without manual maintaining a higher RPM with the throttle.
 
Not a big deal to get to it. I have taken the throttle bodies off of ST’s before to fix coolant leaks. Just takes time.

Typically ST1300’s will be at low idle when the first bar shows on the temp gauge. Mines stays at high idle till almost two bars. Seems the wax valve is slow to react. Typically this is a result of a block in the coolant lines leading to the wax valve. I have taken mine loose and flushed them and the valve with no improvement.
So at this point I’m thinking the wax valve is either out of adjustment or is failing.
 
What is the Wax Valve? I've never heard of this, and I'm in this forum nearly every day.
But I did have a very high idle when I started the bike recently in cold (35 deg F) weather.
The bike would idle up to 4K for a two or three minutes, then slowly go back to normal idle as it warmed up.
I was running the bike in this cold to test my new MCCruise install - don't normally start the bike at all over the winter.
My 2007 ST behaved this exact way for the five years I owned it. I ride year round, so got used to the high RPMs every winter morning. I would ride it immediately and by the time I got to the first traffic light it would be warm enough to idle around 2k or less...
 
It is a small, very difficult to find component attached to the throttle body........

Thanks for the thorough explanation, and photo - much appreciated!
Is is normal for this to ramp up the idle to 4k when very cold ?
 
My 2003 I bought used idled on cold start ~2000 RPM or so for less than a minute before the idle dropped.

My 2009 idled ~4000 RPM until two bars showed since new. I was really uncomfortable with that, so I decided to investigate.

Searching on "cold idle", "fast idle" and such will result in a number of hits re: high RPM cold idle. It seems that there is a wide variety of similar reports, along with many that indicate no excessive RPM symptoms at cold idle.

The adjustment is on the SE Thermal Valve (or "wax pellet"). It's not difficult, but you must remove the airbox to expose the throttle bodies.

The final adjustment I settled on was to adjust the SE Thermal Valve adjusting nut 1/4 turn CCW when looking down on it from the left side of the bike. It doesn't take much to make a significant difference in idle speed at partial warmup. After making the adjustment I'd suggest allowing the bike to cool overnight to achieve a truly cold test start. Allow the bike to idle up to operating temp before deciding whether or not to make any further adjustments. The 1/4 turn CCW I settled on results in a high-idle of ~2000 RPM on a 45 deg. F. cold start, with idle dropping well before the second bar appears.

Note that the manual indicates the Thermal Valve is factory-set and should not be adjusted in the field. There is a small dab of red paint on the adjuster threads, more as a QC mark than to serve as thread locker.

Good Ridin'
slmjim
 
The final adjustment I settled on was to adjust the SE Thermal Valve adjusting nut 1/4 turn CCW when looking down on it from the left side of the bike. It doesn't take much to make a significant difference in idle speed at partial warmup. After making the adjustment I'd suggest allowing the bike to cool overnight to achieve a truly cold test start. Allow the bike to idle up to operating temp before deciding whether or not to make any further adjustments. The 1/4 turn CCW I settled on results in a high-idle of ~2000 RPM on a 45 deg. F. cold start, with idle dropping well before the second bar appears.

Note that the manual indicates the Thermal Valve is factory-set and should not be adjusted in the field. There is a small dab of red paint on the adjuster threads, more as a QC mark than to serve as thread locker.

I didn't know these could be adjusted. This is the first time I have ever seen the way to accomplish this task. Awesome advice!
 
Is is normal for this to ramp up the idle to 4k when very cold ?
That is not my experience. On my motorcycle (2012 ST 1300), it idles at about 2,000 RPM for 2 or 3 minutes, then reverts to whatever idle speed I have set with the adjustment knob on the right side of the engine (1,000 RPM).

I am going to hazard a guess that the most likely cause of prolonged high idle, or excessively high idle, is not failure of the wax assembly but dirt or crud that is preventing the shaft in the wax assembly from freely moving up & down once the wax has melted, or dirt or crud that is preventing the throttle body mechanism from freely moving. The wax assembly, mounted on the throttle body assembly, is located in an area that is subject to accumulating all sorts of crap, dirt, dust, mouse nests, etc., but is extraordinarily hard to access for cleaning & lubrication.

Another significant consideration is that the shaft on the wax assembly causes the whole mechanism on both sides of the throttle body to move slightly (in exactly the same way that the throttle twist-grip causes the whole mechanism on both sides of the throttle body to move), hence, if there is any binding or resistance present anywhere in the throttle body mechanism, it will result in slow operation - or no operation - of the throttle once the wax assembly warms up. So, I would not be too quick to point the finger at the wax assembly if initial idle is too high or if idle speed does not fall back to normal after a few minutes: the shaft in the wax assembly might be relaxing when it should, but the throttle body mechanism might not be free enough to move in response to the shaft relaxing.
Sounds like an emissions item that should be removed if it fails?
One would think that an electronically-controlled fuel-injected engine wouldn't need such a mechanical device.
Apropos of "emission control", although the initial high idle that the wax assembly creates likely provides emission control benefits (faster engine warm-up, faster catalytic converter warm-up), I doubt that is the primary purpose of the wax assembly. Keep in mind that the ST 1300 is a turn-of-the-century design (design was likely finalized in 2000 or 2001), and way back then, we were all using 386 computers that came without sound or video cards, and mobile phones that came in bags with shoulder straps. It's quite likely that Honda engineers thought that the wax assembly was the simplest and most efficient way to provide an automatic choke on the ST 1300 engine.

If I had a problem with prolonged high idle or excessively high idle, the first troubleshooting step I would take would be to remove the whole throttle body assembly from the motorcycle and thoroughly clean and lubricate it. Next, I would take great care when re-installing it (and re-connecting all the hoses & cables) to ensure that none of the moving parts of the throttle body or cables were pinched or fouled, and that the two small coolant hoses that connect to the wax assembly were not pinched or fouled. That's much easier said than done, as anyone who has done a re & re on a throttle body can attest.

Michael
 
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I had the whole thing exposed about a month ago when I was flushing and tightened all the clamps. Everything is clean and binding free. I had hoped that would solve the problem, but alas it has not.

I have adjusted one on a previous bike, however care must be taken as a setting that works when it’s 40* outside may be too low when it’s 80* out causing stalling before the engine is warm.
 
My 2009 idled ~4000 RPM until two bars showed since new. I was really uncomfortable with that, so I decided to investigate.........

4,000 rpm makes me uncomfortable too, that's why I raised the question. At least I know now what seems to be going on.
Now I need to see if it still idles this high in warmer temps. If so I'lI tear back into it and try your adjustment.
Thanks slmjim, for the great info!
 
Larry:

I think that if the wax assembly is working properly and everything is well lubricated and free to move without fouling, the high-idle speed should be the same regardless of outside air temperature (this assumes a 'cold start'). I say this because the wax assembly is a very simple component that only has two positions, "cold" and "hot". When it is in the cold position, it applies a little bit of pressure to the moving parts of the throttle body to open the throttle a wee bit. It applies this pressure to the starter valve mechanism.

Michael
 
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Larry:

I think that if the wax assembly is working properly and everything is well lubricated and free to move without fouling, the high-idle speed should be the same regardless of outside air temperature (this assumes a 'cold start'). I say this because the wax assembly is a very simple component that only has two positions, "cold" and "hot". When it is in the cold position, it applies a little bit of pressure to the moving parts of the throttle body to open the throttle a wee bit. It applies this pressure to exactly the same mechanism that the throttle twist-grip operates on.

Michael
This is true however it’s the ‘area under the curve’ that comes into play when it’s warmer outside. If you remove too much preload from the wax assembly then it goes to low idle too soon and can cause stalling issues. AMHIK
 
My two cents: I was under the impression that the high idle and choke were controlled by the ECM as it is on the GL1800. I recently had a problem with my FI light coming on due to code 26. I wound up replacing the ECM with a used unit from a 2003 bike. My high idle was at about 1800 RPM for up to a minute or so with the stock ECM; with the unit I replaced the stock ECM with, the fast idle is about 1350 or so for no more than a minute. The engine comes back to idle before the 1st bar shows up on the temperature gauge.... I just tested this at 65* air temp.
 
I'm in Michael's camp on this one, the Wax Idle assembly should NOT be changed or adjusted (per the service manual).
What appears to "fix" one problem, will only cause another one. Do Not tamper with the setting. I've had to go in and correct a couple of these that folks messed with.
I would start by checking a few simple things before ripping stuff apart.
Check the T-stat, is it frozen, scraping, or have black paint in the housing?
Check the hoses underneath the smog canister to see if they are clogged up with dirt or melted from the exhaust pipe?
Check the 5 way T, and replace the vacuum lines with new ones, and do a starter valve sync.
And the very first thing I would check....does your bike have an aftermarket cruise control installed? :nuts:
 
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