28A Charge Fail, Melty Surroundings re 1 Alt Input to VRR

HelmetHead said:
1) Thank you for pointing up the simple alternative to soldering. Any pointers re "quality" for crimping tool and/or heat shrink tubing vendors? My principal resources seem to be Harbor Freight and Home Depot. We have Fry's Electronics which used to be great, so I'll probably look there. I just don't know any brand names or characteristics to look for.
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David. My crimpers have the face/die that curves/rolls the sides of the uninsulated connectors (ring, spade, butt) into the common shape you see on most manufacturer's wiring, including Honda. The tools aren't cheap and not everyplace sells uninsulated connectors by piece like my great local hardware store. The cheapest one I have I got from Radio Shack a long time ago:

crimper-uninsulated.jpg

It's still works OK though. The shrink wrap I use is Gardner Bender polyolefin. It is not the common shiny plastic crap, it has a flat finish and excellent shrink characteristics. I buy it in little packages of same size tubes, in a variety of diameters.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-...olefin-Heat-Shrink-Tubing-HST-101BT/202915603

Frankly, as you seem to admit to being a bit of an electrical wiring novice, it might be simpler for you to just get one of the common insulated crimpers and assortment of insulated connectors for 18 - 12 AWG wire. Strip the wire end, plug it into the connector and mash it with the crimper. A lot cheaper, easier to find, and it'll work fine. I'm a bit anal retentive about wiring... a neat-nik...

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-Terminal-and-Crimping-Tool-Kit-GS-67K/202518592

2) Also, since it may be time to get a dremel, I know the last few times I looked them over at Home Depot, there was quite a variety and range of prices. Some stuff was proper Dremel, but those seemed to be in the $100+ range, while the imitators had little kits as low as $15 - $18. Presuming I just need a small kit of cutting disks, are the cheap ones OK?
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You get what you pay for, plus availability of attachments/accessories (heh heh, I have most of Dremel's); although a number of the better brands are compatible. Sears Craftsman is good too.

3) When eliminating the 3P, you just twist the wires together and heat shrink over them, no solder?
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No no! Use a butt connector and after shrinkwrapping to seal/waterproof them, zip-tie the bundle of them to the frame to minimize any movement/flexing. :)

John
 
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HelmetHead said:
So, the path seems clear: snip wires at base of 6P, solder on new female spades, opening one (red/white) as necessary, presuming I can't purchase the right size (I don't think I'll try to shave down the VRR-side male terminal for the red/white, since I don't have a Dremel anyway).
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Actually, I never thought of John's idea about dremeling the male connector, since I also don't own one, but that would be a better idea than opening the spade, which may produce a less secure connection on that red/white terminal. That one is the one that supplies the DC voltage to the battery, so a solid connection is important.
 
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Thanks immensely, John, for the simpleton's cheaper crimp-n-go tools and connectors stuff a Home Depot.


3) When eliminating the 3P, you just twist the wires together and heat shrink over them, no solder?

No no! Use a butt connector and after shrinkwrapping to seal/waterproof them, zip-tie the bundle of them to the frame to minimize any movement/flexing.
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Never heard of these butt connectors, but that sounds like a really simple way to move past the existing 3P.

I ran the dynamic AC test. For the heck of it, I started testing the voltages on each yellow wire as soon as I started the machine. First numbers were high 49.x volts, and after several minutes, water temp gauge about 2 needle widths above left-hand white line, all 3 yellow wires seemed settled in at 63.9 volts.

So, alternator is good, right, because the dynamic test is the definitive test? And if that's the case, couldn't I just hook up all the wires (got them all out of the 6P, though will have to replace one female spade) to the VRR, and if I get the old ~14.6v across the battery terminals, it would prove the VRR is still good, right?

thx again, y'all...
 
Yes, hook them up and check your voltage at the battery.

Butt connector, also called butt splice... Google it. :)

The dynamic AC test readings are taken across two yellow leads. So the test is readings for each of the three combinations of yellow leads.

John
 
Bush said:
Actually, I never thought of John's idea about dremeling the male connector, since I also don't own one, but that would be a better idea than opening the spade, which may produce a less secure connection on that red/white terminal. That one is the one that supplies the DC voltage to the battery, so a solid connection is important.
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Either method will work. The definitive answer will be the lack of heat with your finished connections when the system is properly charging. Shine the metal surfaces before final assembly (emery board females use for nails works well for this), electrons are happy when they have clean, bright, metal to travel thru (avoids overheating when they fight to go past).

If you can, practice a few crimps before doing the actual bike wiring until you're pretty sure you have it down, so you don't have to sacrifice wire on the bike (especially the butt connectors where your chances double). JMHO
 
After passing the dynamic AC test, I put a new spade on the yellow wire that needed one, hitched things up, and got a measly 12.2 across the battery posts at 3500 rpm, after the engine was warmed up.

Before I buy a new VRR, I'm wondering if there is still a loaner, known-good VRR out there I could test with. Anybody, please Private Msg or email me or whatever.

FWIW, a very well respected local cycle repair shop, where the guy on the phone was readily completely conversant with each aspect of the ST1100 charging components, said they trust their VRR testing with a digital multimeter...they agreed the manual calls for specific multimeters, but said that's just out of date (my manual was published in 1996), because the modern digitals don't have anything like the internal resistance of the early ones...
 
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Have that shop test your VRR. And please give us the make and model of the multimeter they use.

In 16 years of participating in ST1100 listserv a and forums I have never heard of anyone using any multimeter that returned readings of any use, including on known-good OEM VRRs.

In a few days I could possibly have a loaner aftermarket VRR (requires individual spade connectors, which is now your setup). Anybody else have a test loaner to offer?

John
 
I couldn't make on progress on this issue today, but I will tomorrow try to get them to test my VRR, and I'll come back with numbers and multimeter make and model...thx...
 
HelmetHead said:
After passing the dynamic AC test, I put a new spade on the yellow wire that needed one, hitched things up, and got a measly 12.2 across the battery posts at 3500 rpm, after the engine was warmed up.
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Did I read this correctly ? You put ONE new spade connector on ONE of the yellow stator leads ?
Any of the connections getting warm/hot ?
Have you posted in the wanted section for the regulator ?
 
Yes, for purposes of narrowing things down, i.e., to just confirm inadequate charging after confirming yellow wires were properly loaded with charge, I replaced just the trashed spade, and thus have, I believe, proved that the VRR is the problem.

I'm going to order a new VRR tonight/tomorrow, and while awaiting its arrival, I'm going to eliminate the 3P and then cut back all the VRR input lines, and replace all spades (except, for now, the odd-sized red/white wire's spade, which looks fine).
 
John,

I'm going to go ahead and order a new OEM VRR from partzilla, approx. $160.

I tried late this afternoon to arrange a VRR test with the cycle repair shop mentioned previously, intending to get info you requested, i.e., numerical read-outs for the VRR testing specified in the manual, along with the make and model of the multimeter being used. However, the service manager basically backed off the testing scheme, saying he wasn't going to do all the pin vs. pin stuff in the chart on page 17-8 (I suspect partly because I was obviously doing the repair work myself). He would only give me thumbs up or down on the diode behind each yellow wire pin.

So, I'm moving on...new VRR, here we come...
 
Methinks the service manager had his bluff called, as any multimeter with a diode setting can do the diode testing, like mine . . . . but I'm a bit of a cynic anyway.
 
Finally got my OEM VRR (partzilla, $180 including 2-day shipping from Georgia to California). At this point my questions are a bit limited, because I'm going to do more testing tomorrow, but as I do that, I'm looking for any and all perspectives.

Per the manual, I should be in pretty good shape. The manual, however, around pages 17-6 and 17-7, confuses me. I will attempt an explanation of my confusion in a later post, since that sort of writing is always difficult, unless, of course, this community's experience lets me abandon the confusion.

I am not easily accepting the manual's verbiage, partly because I find parts of it confusing, but also because some of my testing this evening doesn't quite fit with memory.

I think I remember, probably 3 years ago, get readings of 14.x volts across the battery terminals, with lights on, etc. This bike has zero farkles. I'm hoping the community will tell me, nah, you're remembering wrong.

Overnight re-charged battery showed 12.75v before hooking up to bike wiring.

Today, through somewhat odd circumstances, the engine was heated up enough to start the fan before I got my multimeter probes probing. I had not disabled any lights, etc. With all lighting on, and fan running, new VRR readings across the battery posts was 12.25v.

I let the machine cool down, pulled the 20A fuse for the headlights (which successfully shut them off), and I got 13.75v at 4500rpm.

While that result is well within manual specs, I am still uneasy, since I have this (maybe) false memory of 14.x with all lights on.

So, the question for which I seek feedback, is, Am I nuts? (Jennnifer, hush, please), or, is 12.25v (approx 3000rpm) with all lights and fan, and 13.75v at 4500rpm with no headlights and no fan, within acceptable ranges?

I would note that my dynamic alternator test a few days back showed ~64vAC on each pair of yellow wires at the alternator side of the original 3P connector. My only reference for that number's viability is some old note hereabouts twixt JohnOo and perhaps Bush or Brandt, wherein one of the latter said he couldn't recall the right range, but thought 50 - 80vAC was appropriate.
 
Readings are too low.

**One of the three windings may be intermittent (as engine heats up; vibration).
One of the three yellow leads between the red 3P and the white 6P may have high resistance (corrosion, cut).
Battery (load test?).
Defective new VRR?

**edit: do the dynamic AC test again with engine hot and those same low readings are happening.

[$180 would go a long ways towards a 40amp. Sorry...]

John
 
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John OoSTerhuis said:
Readings are too low.

**One of the three windings may be intermittent (as engine heats up; vibration).
One of the three yellow leads between the red 3P and the white 6P may have high resistance (corrosion, cut).
Battery (load test?).
Defective new VRR?



**edit: do the dynamic AC test again with engine hot and those same low readings are happening.

[$180 would go a long ways towards a 40amp. Sorry...]

John
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Given that the machine seemingly passed the dynamic AC test earlier, suspicion certainly falls on the yellow wires between 3P and 6P. The 3P is still in place because my right hand injury a month back continues to limit me a lot. I will next run a dynamic AC test at the yellow wires' VRR connection spades (on the spades themselves, not the VRR pins). If that's inconclusive, I'll get the 3P eliminated/bypassed as soon as I can, and then do more testing.

Battery was brand new, showed 12.75v and 267 CCA at the store...my 3-year old Yuasa, now defunct because the neg terminal split and twisted to the right at last tightening (just me and my lousy wrist, not that strong!) showed 12.65v and 200CCA at the store, well within "good" range on load tester...

If the new VRR is defective, I'm not sure how I can prove it; the $180 may well be down the drain, but...part of the reason I've charged down the route I'm on is that I do not believe I can do an alternator replacement or upgrade. Lost all tools and most everything else in a financial debacle a few years back, from which I have yet to recover, and I have no where to work except in a driveway shared with three other people and their cars, so if my alternator is the problem, another ST1100 hits the part-out stage of its life...

Thanks for feedback, y'all...acquiring certainty, whether the news is good or bad, is still better than wandering around in ignorance...
 
A question that persists:

As laid out somewhere upstream, the 6P was found to have a badly melted-in (burned black plastic surrounding) spade on the yellow wire next to the wall of the VRR adjacent to the bike (VRR pin #5, per manual page 17-8). That wire was cut back and re-spaded prior to new VRR testing.

The melting/burning should have occurred for one of two reasons, I'd think: 1) real bad, corrosion-induced resistance just below the original spade; or, 2) the diode/circuitry (in the old VRR) that runs off pin #5 died, yielding extreme resistance at the pin/spade interface.

Given that there was clearly deadly resistance at the spade, could trouble back up to the alternator, and have made the alternator the problem?
 
HelmetHead said:
A question that persists:

As laid out somewhere upstream, the 6P was found to have a badly melted-in (burned black plastic surrounding) spade on the yellow wire next to the wall of the VRR adjacent to the bike (VRR pin #5, per manual page 17-8). That wire was cut back and re-spaded prior to new VRR testing.

The melting/burning should have occurred for one of two reasons, I'd think: 1) real bad, corrosion-induced resistance just below the original spade; or, 2) the diode/circuitry (in the old VRR) that runs off pin #5 died, yielding extreme resistance at the pin/spade interface.

Given that there was clearly deadly resistance at the spade, could trouble back up to the alternator, and have made the alternator the problem?
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If those spade terminals got hot enough to discolor, they HAVE to be replaced. Even cleaned, they'll create too much resistance from bein 'annealed';). Do that and stuff some dielectic grease in female connection prior to connecting. That SHOULD be done to ALL seen plug-in connections, and you'll NEVER have an issue with the 28amp alt.......which IS due to poor connections. Unfortunately, most of those are 'out of site, out of mind' under tupperware, and this IS what causes the alt. issues on the early STeeds, not the alt. itself;).
 
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