ST1100 Rear Wheel Question

sennister

sennister

Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
2,901
Age
50
Location
Grant, MN (aka Stillwater)
Bike
ST1100 & ST1300
There is a new member here in Minnesota that I am trying to help out. He had his 1993 ST1100 at a local dealer for service and they mentioned that his splines were worn and gave him a list of parts that should be replaced. This is nothing new with us but I thought it was strange that in the parts that they said should be replaced was the entire rear wheel. He sourced most of the parts needed (used diff and rear wheel) but the mechanic said that his new rear wheel suffers the same rear wheel wear as the old one. He is now in negotiations with the seller on ebay trying to see if he can get another "new" rear wheel. We were chatting on the phone a few minutes ago and he mentioned that he emailed the seller photos of the wheel. I asked if he could forward the photos to me and that I would post a new thread on this for him. Now, I stopped by his house a couple weeks ago and took a glance at the "new" wheel but mainly looked at the teeth of the spline. In the past when watching for wear that is where I thought the wear was always in this area. The teeth looked pretty good from what I saw. The "new" diff looks pretty good as well.

I did some digging around this site because I thought I remembered reading about how to do a rear diff alignment when it is replaced as this information will be needed when the work is done. I will see if I can find the thread but there was mention in one thread where people said this person had a rear wheel that was worn and in need of replacement. There only seemed to be that one thread on that and I don't think I have read much about this issue before.

Anyhow these are the two photos that were sent to me. Does anyone see any signs of wear on these?




I think that the post where it was mentioned that the rear wheel was worn and needed replacement that the heads of these bolts were worn. These look good. I don't know that there is a spec or anything in the service manual that states what to gauge on a rear wheel to determine if it is good or not. Not that I have been able to find anyhow.



Any ideas. I will ask to see if I can get a photo of the spline teeth as well. They looked pretty good when I saw them at his house though.
 
I should add that in talks with the people selling that they have ordered replacement bushings, I assume dampeners, and they are sending these to him.
 
I'd clean it up, moly it, and ride the snot out of it! :D If those allen head bolts that secure the rubber damper plate are worn on the heads (no signs of it in the picture), chances are the ball bearing side of the wheel bearings is worn out. It just looks like nobody ever put moly in there so he may have some wear on the gear teeth in the drive flange and the pumpkin.
 
Uncle Phil said:
I'd clean it up, moly it, and ride the snot out of it! :D If those allen head bolts that secure the rubber damper plate are worn on the heads (no signs of it in the picture), chances are the ball bearing side of the wheel bearings is worn out. It just looks like nobody ever put moly in there so he may have some wear on the gear teeth in the drive flange and the pumpkin.
Click to expand...

This is the replacement wheel. I looked at the gear teeth side when I was out at his place and they looked fine. He also has a replacement pumpkin and that looked pretty good as far as the teeth go. I asked him to take another photo of the teeth side of the final drive flange. So I could post that as well but I like I said it isn't in the sawtooth pattern that they look like when worn. At least the photos of worn ones that I have seen. I haven't seen one in person.

I am just not seeing any red flags in the photos and when I was out at his place. If he can get the dampeners thrown in I say replace them. I don't know the mileage on the replacement wheel but he already owns it. I haven't seen his wheel off so I don't know what condition that is in to compare.

I offered to see if we can arrange a time to have him out to my place to do the work. We can get it swapped out in a couple hours I suspect. I also have a set of tires at my place for him that I will mount for him. We are starting to get short on time. He is heading out of town in a couple weeks for the winter.

I agree a good cleaning would be good. Maybe toss a set of bearings in there depending on how they look. I think I have a set on hand if needed.
 
SENN - I don't quite understand the 'worn out' wheel thing. You can get some wear in the pockets where the rubber damper/metal inserts go, but you generally just fill the depressions with JB weld and reassemble. Since the insert has the gears on it, the only other thing on the wheel itself would be the bearings and the bolts that secure the damper plate. What am I missing?
 
Uncle Phil said:
SENN - I don't quite understand the 'worn out' wheel thing. You can get some wear in the pockets where the rubber damper/metal inserts go, but you generally just fill the depressions with JB weld and reassemble. Since the insert has the gears on it, the only other thing on the wheel itself would be the bearings and the bolts that secure the damper plate. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Yeah, we are in the same boat. When the member joined and mentioned he needed a new wheel I was confused as well. I have seen the splines worn but that is a separate part from the wheel.

I have only seen one post talking about a worn wheel and that was the one I linked to in post #3 above. That wheel looks a lot worse than the replacement. I really don't know what his current wheel looks like as it was on his bike. I know what you mean about the wear on the bold that secure the dampener plate. I have seen that before and his replacement wheel looks fine as far as what I would look for.

Really the only person for sure stating that this wheel is worn is the Honda Mechanic. The member has been using him for several years and trusts his knowledge. I don't know, I have been to that Honda Dealership once just to check it out and I bought some Moly paste there. That is the limit of my experience there. They knew what Moly paste was so I guess we could say that is a good thing. It is kind of a common thing that a lot of the mechanics have little to no experience on the ST line, just because there are not that many of them out there. I don't know what his experience level is so I don't want to bad mouth the shop or deny anything he is claiming. It would be easier if it was more cut and dry where measurement X is out of spec or see this, this is wear to the teeth of the final drive flange. Those are easy to see. In this case I am not seeing the problem myself.

I am leaning toward your thoughts. Lets clean it up good, replace the dampeners, maybe bearings, swap the diff, align it, lube the splines with Moly and go ride.
 
I guess this is the area of concern with the mechanic. Note this references the photos in the original post.

My mechanic pointed out that the wear (shown in the attached photos) is due to lack of moly [referring to the point between the flange and the wheel hub]. Notice the wear on the flange where it mates the hub and the 5 studs (or whatever they're called).
More importantly you can see the groove worn in the hub of the wheel.
Click to expand...

The wear on the 5 studs to me looks normal. In fact I don't think that is wear. Aren't they that way from the factory? If the wear being noted on this part is the inside of the flange. This is a non moving part in relation to the wheel right? The studs are inside the dampeners so this isn't an issue.

Then on to the second photo. It mentioned the groove worn in the hub. I would have to take mine apart to look at it closer but I think this is normally there as well. It has been a while since I have had mine off to look though.

Here is a link that John O has on his Web Shots site that shows this area on his rear rim. Again it looks like the same groove is on his wheel. I don't think this is an issue and very well may be there by design.

link

I just am not seeing anything wrong with the wheel. The member has admitted that he isn't very mechanically inclined. That is fine, not everyone is. That is the great part about this site. There are people here that are, and we can help out. I keep looking at this thinking, I see nothing wrong. I would say I am 90% sure that the wheel is fine. I actually would be willing to say I am 70% sure his old wheel is fine as well but I haven't looked at it.
 
OK, we have some more photos.

Here is the shot of the teeth on the flange


A closeup showing some signs of wear. I don't recall seeing this wear on the inside of the splines but it does have grease on it. It makes it a little hard to see. Need some gas or degreaser to get it really clean before we can tell for sure. While not 100% it does have some miles left in it. Again. I don't know if this is better or worse than what he has now.



Another shot of the flange. The splines are out of focus so it is not of huge value. Other than shows it needs a good cleaning.



A shot of the studs on the flange. I don't see anything that would raise an alarm. Lots of miles left on these.



While there is some wear on the splines, it is a used part off an older bike. This can be expected. If properly cared for with Moly and new o-rings it should have many years left in it. The way it is wearing makes me think that the rear diff should have been aligned in the donor bike. This will be done on his when the new diff is installed.

As for a course of action for him. Maybe send the seller the enlarged photo of the splines that I have above. See if he has another drive flange that shows less wear than that. If he does great. If not I guess it is up to him. If I were him I would want to pull the original rear wheel because much of what is being pointed out as wear beyond service life by the mechanic isn't something I would be overly concerned about. It may be that he can return the wheel, and replace the flange with a new one for what he paid for the wheel. Provided his original wheel looks this good. A new flange from Service Honda is $136.44. I think he said he paid $200-250 for the wheel. Something like that. Maybe that was the diff. I don't recall for sure. Or keep the wheel for a spare as I don't see anything serious wrong with it that would keep me from mounting it and riding across the country.
 
Our bikes have a rear differential? Is there a second rear wheel to necessitate a differential?

:p

Just joshin ya, Senn. It's the final drive, not a differential. ;)
 
Is that groove for one of the O-rings?

Is the owner or mechanic aware of a thin plastic shim inside the hub?
 
The wheel pictured at the beginning of this thread looks serviceable to me. Make sure there is a thrust washer between the wheel hub and the driven flange. The '93 model used a metal thrust washer, don't know if that can be interchanged with the plastic one used on later models or not. Where the wear on the wheel will occur is on the face of the boss where the wheel bearing is pressed in. Severe wear will make the bearing appear to protrude from the hub. This one looks pretty flush like it should. The groove around the boss is for a missing o-ring.
 
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