Gonna try to install one of my 2x new SMC units...

[sirbike]

With sliders and pistons clean, what could cause the brakes to continue to bind slightly...? Could this be something inside the brake calipers...?

Did you remove the caliper pistons, totally clean the bores, pistons, and install new piston seals?
It is possible for old seals to loose their pliability where the flex out slightly with the piston then draw the piston back that ever so slight yet important distance.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

Did you remove the caliper pistons, totally clean the bores, pistons, and install new piston seals?
It is possible for old seals to loose their pliability where the flex out slightly with the piston then draw the piston back that ever so slight yet important distance.

I did not. That's too much of a big job for me presently. Plus I do not have the parts.

 

[SMSW]

Not sure if you know how the calipers work, so here goes (this is simply restating what @sirbike said). When you apply the brakes, hydraulic fluid pushes the pistons in the calipers outward, pressing the brake pads against the rotors. This motion distorts the square (cross section) o-ring in the caliper body surrounding each piston. Release the brakes and the o-ring reverts to its square cross section, pulling the piston back into the caliper body. This movement is only a few thousandths of an inch (not a lot of millimeters, either) but it is enough to let the wheel spin freely. You are correct, air in the system should not affect the caliper movement, except NO fluid in the caliper and NO pressure when the brakes are applied will not cause piston movement thus there is no o-ring distortion and no retraction of the piston.

When you are finished bleeding, spin the wheel, apply the brakes and release. Now spin it again and see how far it spins before coasting to a stop. Someone will have to be pressing down on the rear of the bike to lift the front wheel off the ground. If you have very long arms, you can do this yourself, otherwise, carefully jack the front wheel off the ground by lifting under the oil pan with a mc lifter or hydraulic jack.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

I don't see how air in the SMC side could affect the right caliper.

I wasn't referring to the right caliper in particular. I meant that in general terms flushing, or at least thoroughly bleeding, a brake system that has been opened is a good idea before attempting to diagnose that brake system. Attempting diagnosis while air and/or moisture is present in the hydraulic system can be fruitless. Air and moisture expand much more when heated than the brake fluid does, simulating the effects of a pneumatic/hydraulic system, which you don't want. Depending on other factors that may be present, this can cause not only un-commanded pressure in the system but also that un-commanded pressure is not evenly distributed because the air and moisture is not evenly distributed. If the system has been opened, or if it has been a while since a flush and bleed has been performed, doing so is a good first step to help avoid chasing your tail looking for a problem that might be the result of a contaminated hydraulic system.

 

[sirbike]

You may not have the knowledge to overhaul calipers but if you can change an smc you have the skill set to overhaul calipers. We have the knowledge for you.
Before going there.
Did you do the following?
Take the slide pins out to thoroughly clean them.
Clean out the rubber slide pin dust seals. I use WD40 then blow that out, then finish drying with twirling paper towel in there. Importantly don’t use anything that would hurt the rubber, number one no no, brake cleaner.
Lube pins with high temperature brake grease. Thin layer so as to not create an air seal. Don’t think about the seal comment if you don’t get that. The key is put a thin layer of lube on the pin.
Clean the spring pad. That is the thin metal thingy that the top edge of the brake pads rub against.
Clean the areas where the ends of the brake pads fit in the caliper.

 

[jfheath]

Oops. Sorry @sirbike - What you said to do is correct, but the advice about type of grease on the slide pins / boots is wrong. Dont put oil based lubricants anywhere near those rubber boots or slide pins. The boots will swell and stop sealing. They need to seal to keep out muck amd water. They need 'Rubber grease' often red, designed specifically for hydraulics. Either that or silicone based grease.

Take a read of Avoiding the pitfalls. It points out things to watch out for when refitting calipers and pads.

Article [13] - ST1300 - Brake Maintenance - Avoiding the Pitfalls | ST1300 Articles

A close hands-on look at the Honda ST1300 braking system. These are personal observations about the things that can go wrong, why they go wrong and what can be done to keep things working sweetly. Updated April 2020 and to address more recent observations, to include information about the SMC...

www.st-owners.com

 

[The Dark Shadow]

CAN SOMEONE CLOSE BY PLEASE COME RESCUE ME!! I'm in Dartmouth Nova Scotia.

nine oh too - for won too - ate ate nine nine

(phone number in code to avoid spam)

I've been at this for close to 12 hours now and it's not working!

I'm truly ready to take a sledge hammer to the bike!

2014... I have over 15,000 Canadian into the bike already.

Great tuition fees!

Larry has been very kind and helpful trying to help me out via phone, but something is wrong and when you're not there in person, sometimes it's impossible to diagnose and instruct from afar.

 

[MidLife]

I did not. That's too much of a big job for me presently. Plus I do not have the parts.

Didn't Garrie rebuild the rear?

 

[The Dark Shadow]

Didn't Garrie rebuild the rear?

Not really rebuild.. Just change brake pads and service brakes. I changed the SMC, emptied the brake juice, and tried refilling it... But it won't rebuild pressure in the rear brake.

I don't have rear brakes so can't drive it anywhere, don't have a trailer, and am out of money. Unemployed for 15 years. Canada sukks!

I paid Garrie a total over 500 bucks working on my brakes. For new pads and a bleed. I ended up changing the new pads he put on anyway because they weren't honda and were still binding. If I can't do it myself I can't "own" this bike.

 

[SMSW]

If I can't do it myself I can't "own" this bike.

But you can do it yourself. You have already proven that. Time to take a 20 minute break, have a glass of orange juice (or whatever is your favorite) and relax a bit. Then go back. We ALL get frustrated now and then at things mechanical.

 

[jfheath]

The rear brake system is complex. The fluid goes from the rear brake pedal to the rear centre piston. That bit is easy to understand - but it is not a closed circuit. It gets its fluid fromt he same place, through the same hole in the rear master cylinder as the other very long circuit.

That goes from the rear pedal.
Forward to the front right hand fork where it splits. One line goes to the front right centre piston.
The other line goes to the front left centre piston.
From the front left centre piston it take a very short journey to the SMC inlet.
From the SMC outlet it goes back up the fork leg, across the mudguard, up to a bleed valve near your right knee and down to the two rear outer pistons.

You have to work through the sequence in the correct order. If your front brakes are bled and working fine, you do not have to touch the top bleed valve on either of the front calipers. Neither do you have to open up the front brake lever fluid reservoir. Everything is done with the brake pedal and the rear reservoir.

The entire system will feel soft with just a couple of air bubbles in it. You have to build up a mental image of where the air bubbles are hiding and chase them out at the next bleed valve.

So you might find this link very useful.

Download the pdf and watch the video of plastic tubes and water with black ink. It helps to understand how bubbles can get stuck.

Take it steady.

Article [13] - ST1300 - Brake Maintenance - Getting all the air out of the brake system | ST1300 Articles | ST-Owners.com

 

[The Dark Shadow]

The rear brake system is complex. The fluid goes from the rear brake pedal to the rear centre piston. That bit is easy to understand - but it is not a closed circuit. It gets its fluid fromt he same place, through the same hole in the rear master cylinder as the other very long circuit.

That goes from the rear pedal.
Forward to the front right hand fork where it splits. One line goes to the front right centre piston.
The other line goes to the front left centre piston.
From the front left centre piston it take a very short journey to the SMC inlet.
From the SMC outlet it goes back up the fork leg, across the mudguard, up to a bleed valve near your right knee and down to the two rear outer pistons.

You have to work through the sequence in the correct order. If your front brakes are bled and working fine, you do not have to touch the top bleed valve on either of the front calipers. Neither do you have to open up the front brake lever fluid reservoir. Everything is done with the brake pedal and the rear reservoir.

The entire system will feel soft with just a couple of air bubbles in it. You have to build up a mental image of where the air bubbles are hiding and chase them out at the next bleed valve.

So you might find this link very useful.

Download the pdf and watch the video of plastic tubes and water with black ink. It helps to understand how bubbles can get stuck.

Take it steady.

Article [13] - ST1300 - Brake Maintenance - Getting all the air out of the brake system | ST1300 Articles | ST-Owners.com

I did the bleeding at least 6x in correct order, and had some advice ( 2 hours or more) from Larry via phone. Even he can't figure out out!

I NEED SOMEONE HERE.

 

[Willsmotorcycle]

Please erase this! Computer bots find phone numbers and spam them!!

That's why I wrote it in code !

I KNOW MY OWN PHONE NUMBER FFS!!

ERASE YOUR COMMENT!!!

You're clouded by something other than reason. That's the letter I not the number 1 in your number. considered it deleted...

 

[The Dark Shadow]

You're clouded by something other than reason. That's the letter I not the number 1 in your number. considered it deleted...

Thank you.

Clouded by years of my fate and luck... I won't get into it here.

 

[sirbike]

Oops. Sorry @sirbike - What you said to do is correct, but the advice about type of grease on the slide pins / boots is wrong. Dont put oil based lubricants anywhere near those rubber boots or slide pins. The boots will swell and stop sealing. They need to seal to keep out muck amd water. They need 'Rubber grease' often red, designed specifically for hydraulics. Either that or silicone based grease.

Take a read of Avoiding the pitfalls. It points out things to watch out for when refitting calipers and pads.

Article [13] - ST1300 - Brake Maintenance - Avoiding the Pitfalls | ST1300 Articles

A close hands-on look at the Honda ST1300 braking system. These are personal observations about the things that can go wrong, why they go wrong and what can be done to keep things working sweetly. Updated April 2020 and to address more recent observations, to include information about the SMC...

www.st-owners.com

Hey @jfheath, grease that doesn’t hurt seal is good to clarify.
I use Permatex Ultra disc brake caliper lube. It is rated up to 495F.
It is specified for use on slide pins and rubber sleeves and seals.

I wish I could go to NS for a weekend but not happening anytime soon.

 

[Chris09]

Even with some understanding and experience of hydronics / pneumatics I have to say seeing JF's demo was an eye opener; sheds more than a bit of light on what goes on under real world conditions.
I'm a big fan of the Honda linked braking systems, It's easy to get over 100 mph and then afterward try to figure out how to negotiate with every stupid thing you did to get there. The Honda brake systems bring these big bikes down.

 

[jfheath]

I cannot help with this without some additional information.

Something that you are doing isn't helping. But I can only guess what it is.
What bleed tool(s) are you using.
How do you fit the tube onto the bleed valve.
Do you have access to the PCV bleed valve on the right hand side between the fairing pocket and the fuel tank ?
Can you describe exactly what you do.
How are you managing to bleed the front left centre piston using the brake pedal.

That sort of thing.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

I cannot help with this without some additional information.

Something that you are doing isn't helping. But I can only guess what it is.
What bleed tool(s) are you using.
How do you fit the tube onto the bleed valve.
Do you have access to the PCV bleed valve on the right hand side between the fairing pocket and the fuel tank ?
Can you describe exactly what you do.
How are you managing to bleed the front left centre piston using the brake pedal.

That sort of thing.

I was using a vacuum pump.

I've ordered a set of 2 one way check valves, arriving Friday (if Amazon comes through).

I'll see if these help. Both Guru Larry and another forum member recommend the check valve. Larry said the vacuum pump never gave him good results.

With my luck, however, I won't be surprised if it still doesn't work. But if course I can't judge until I try...

12 hours into it with nothing to show for it but sunburn and scratches on my fender is nothing short of disheartening. :-(

Hey @jfheath, grease that doesn’t hurt seal is good to clarify.
I use Permatex Ultra disc brake caliper lube. It is rated up to 495F.
It is specified for used on slide pins and rubber sleeves and seals.

I wish I could go to NS for a weekend but not happening anytime soon.

I have silicone gel lube that is safe for rubber and plastics.

 

[SMSW]

With all due respects to Larry, I used a vacuum pump on my bikes (Guzzi, ST1300, VStrom) with no problems at all. It did a fine job, when finished each bike had rock hard brakes - i.e. no squishy hand levers or brake pedals. I did follow the HSM's instructions religiously, but did nothing special. As I said elsewhere, I suck out the old fluid from the reservoir, fill it with new, then bleed each nipple in order, sucking 3 reservoirs of new fluid through.

Most of the time, guys report dragging problems were due to putting the wheel spacers on backwards or not fitting the pads properly in the caliper or positioning the caliper springs improperly. Bleeding is straightforward.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

With all due respects to Larry, I used a vacuum pump on my bikes (Guzzi, ST1300, VStrom) with no problems at all. It did a fine job, when finished each bike had rock hard brakes - i.e. no squishy hand levers or brake pedals. I did follow the HSM's instructions religiously, but did nothing special. As I said elsewhere, I suck out the old fluid from the reservoir, fill it with new, then bleed each nipple in order, sucking 3 reservoirs of new fluid through.

Most of the time, guys report dragging problems were due to putting the wheel spacers on backwards or not fitting the pads properly in the caliper or positioning the caliper springs improperly. Bleeding is straightforward.

I followed the Honda service manual instructions. I removed all the old fluid first. But even before I removed the old fluid, the back brake pedal needed to be pumped about 7 or 8 times before the back brakes worked. This is certainly due to the air from the new SMC I installed. The vacuum pump doesn't seem to suck up enough brake fluid through the proportional valve. This bleeder is fighting against gravity. This is my best guess. The one way valve won't allow any air or fluid to back flow.

Truth is, I can only guess. There might be another issue with the system.

A general note to everyone...

Guitar building and repair for me is easy! EASY EASY EASY!

Motorcycle brake maintenance is NOT!

12 hours wasted with a bike I can't ride!

I don't even have a good place to repair my bike. I have to roll it onto the street, and gather all my various tools. Takes nearly 15 minutes to setup and then to break down. And another fellow in the neighbourhood got a ticket for doing auto-repair on the street.

So, PLEASE don't superimpose what is EASY FOR YOU onto what is DIFFICULT for someone else.

Guitar building is easy for me, but I have had many students, and some really suck, and no one has been as good as me. For me to superimpose "easy" onto my students would likely put some of them into the position of feeling disenchanted due to an "easy" task being very difficult.

Thank you.

And thank you everyone for offering help, both by this forum and by phone!!

This stuff is easy for me!