Backyard Workshop / Garage and freezing canadian winters

[SMSW]

Addendum to my last post. I'd suggest you run the pipe from your house to the shed for natural gas (if you heat with that). YOu might not use it, but it is a lot easier to do the constructing at one time. If its propane, you can do that later because the tank will be near the shed. Electrical service can be either direct burial cable (NOT Romex) or in conduit. I have had my share of failures w/ direct burial cable (besides, it goes pretty deep - so you need a trencher) so I am a fan of pipe. Here, rigid pipe goes 6" down (top of pipe to grade) and PVC goes (I think) 18". I like metal because I really dislike digging. If its in pipe, you will run individual wires, and as someone said earlier, #6 wire should be a minimum. Before you size the wires, however, check what size heater you will use. The load determines the wire size. What besides an electric heater might you use out there? (No. 6 carries 50 amps, and you will be running 4 wires - two hots, a neutral, and a ground wire.) Your electrical service will end in a small breaker box in the shed. Run your outlet and lighting (and heating) circuits from there.

 

[Bmacleod]

I am a big proponent of wood sheathing on inside walls. You can hang anything anywhere. My garage is drywall and I always have to place so many things where studs are (shelves, bracketry, reels, etc.)... very inefficient use of space and always irritates me when I'm trying to mount/hang something. Although I dont have any holes or marks in the drywall, you do have to be careful. Wood is obviously much more durable

 

[Gerhard]

Electricity, if your needs are modest I would consider solar. I was talking to an acquaintance end of last summer and he had built a man cave in a clearing near his woodlot and put two solar panels on the roof. He said it produces enough power to keep the beer cold, run lights and have a couple of outlets. It cost him under $500, it would not have been practical to run a line to it and it is quieter than a generator.

 

[Bmacleod]

If you go with 2x6 walls, some jurisdictions will allow 24" spacing on wall studs, which may offset the increase in cost over 2x4 studs, which will have to be on 16" centers. The only problem i have with 24" centers is the big span makes for weak drywall if using 1/2' drywall. You would like to use 5/8" drywall or the aforementioned wood sheathing

 

[Andrew Shadow]

A footer is usually 18" wide by 12" deep and goes below the frost line. Smart guys place a couple or three rebars 1/3 of the way up from the bottom.

One of things I never got around to looking in to. I have been told that around here dwellings intended to be used as living spaces, such as houses, must have footings that go below the frost line, which has always been the norm. I was told that things like garages and sheds can be built using the slab on grade system and do not have this requirement.

 

[RaYzerman]

Monolithic slab on grade can be used for dwellings, but over a certain square footage (here 560), your foundation drawing has to be stamped by an engineer. I had to do this for the shop, did the drawings myself, but.....
I forgot about the $3k budget.... in that case, wood floor joists, adequate supports, stone (drainage) and vapour barrier down first. 2x4 insulated walls, etc. My sister just bought a prefab garage, 16x20, they erected it on a packed gravel base (recycled asphalt). Actually surprised it's decently built for budget construction, I think C$2500. Has garage door in end plus one side, man door, coupla windows. Unfinished on the inside, came with basic wiring for a couple of lights/switches... just wire and plumb away. Done in a day or two, and you get to watch and sip on your beer. $3k budget is a little tight as still need insulation and interior finish.
Bmacleod, can always run a band of 4'x8' sheet of plywood at an appropriate height right over the drywall, say 30" up from the floor.

 

[Bmacleod]

Bmacleod, can always run a band of 4'x8' sheet of plywood at an appropriate height right over the drywall, say 30" up from the floor.

Yep, thought about that but have decided instead to move east a bit within the next few years and build my last home, with my dream garage.

 

[ReSTored]

For walls thinckness, 2x4 framing is very common in north america. With this thickness, you can use 3.5 inches thick fiberglass (R-12), but, I will probably go with 2x6 and use 5.5 inch thinck fiberglass (R-22).

I'm looking at options for my cottage basement redo re insulation and I'm trending toward rockwool vs. fiberglass. Easier to work with and I'm reading that it is more mold and water/moisture resistant long term and less likely to harbour rodents. https://www.familyhandyman.com/walls/mineral-wool-insulation-is-making-a-comeback-heres-why/

I've done some preliminary demo work in the basement and the existing 28 year old fiberglass insulation has degraded significantly. Granted you've just building an outdoor shed but you'll probably have more potential for issues with humidity and rodents.

 

[ST1100Y]

For heating... probably a small electric heater set to maintain a minimum and also a propane heater to warm up the shop when I'm working there.

If I might suggest:
a split type A/C unit with heat-pump function; COP of >5 (1000W in = >5000W heating), spits comfy warm air within 3~5 minutes, FCU mounts up on the wall (like above door/window), hence no space lost, not getting in the way, no fumes...
And during the summer nice cool/dehumidify function...

 

[Bmacleod]

I will mention that in my experience, it is not wise to raise the temp of a room very fast and a big spread. Years ago, I borrowed a propane salamander to try in my garage. One day it was -10 or so and I fired up the heater and in 10-15 minutes it was warm enough to work in a t-shirt (probably +15 or so). However, the fast temp rise caused a lot of condensation to form on my tools. I have woodworking machines with cast iron tops that took the biggest hit with light rust forming immediately. I never did that again. I use a 220 volt electric space heater and it takes a hour to get comfortable, if it is not too cold. If it is really cold, it struggles to warm up. Somewhere in between would be nice. When I build my next shop, it will have a much better system.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

If I might suggest:
a split type A/C unit with heat-pump function; COP of >5 (1000W in = >5000W heating), spits comfy warm air within 3~5 minutes, FCU mounts up on the wall (like above door/window), hence no space lost, not getting in the way, no fumes...
And during the summer nice cool/dehumidify function...

My exact thoughts as this is what I would like to do as well. I was going to suggest this heating option for the very same reasons that you have. The reason that I didn't is because this one item would consume most if not all of his build budget by itself.

We have made a lot of really good suggestions to him. To bad that we probably have made him regret that he ever asked because now he is going to want to increase his budget to accommodate some of these good ideas. Construction never seems to stay on budget somehow. It sure would be nice to have an unlimited budget to build with wouldn't it?

 

[W0QNX]

@Chris_64 FYI I found nails for the nail gun are half the price of old fashion regular nails. One good reason I choose not to hand drive most of the over 5,000 nails I used in my shed.

 

[SMSW]

Construction never seems to stay on budget somehow. It sure would be nice to have an unlimited budget to build with wouldn't it?

Then you end up with a residence like Versailles. If @Chris_64 ended up with a garage of that size, he would never be able to find his bike, let alone work on it. (On the other hand, he would not have to go outside to ride it.)

 

[ReSTored]

We have made a lot of really good suggestions to him. To bad that we probably have made him regret that he ever asked because now he is going to want to increase his budget to accommodate some of these good ideas. Construction never seems to stay on budget somehow. It sure would be nice to have an unlimited budget to build with wouldn't it?

Well, his budget might have been based on what he thought he needed. Now he has some other things to consider based on our experience or hard learned lessons and better to revise plans now and maybe tweak the budget a bit than to finish up and then find out that the shed does not perform as expected.

 

[SupraSabre]

A few years ago, after my wife's old car took over the rest of the two car garage and I still needed to store my extra bikes, loosing my third car garage for working on a bike more than over the weekend, she (the wife) suggested that we sell/get rid of the spa that was sitting on a 14 X 15 X 4 concrete slab and put a shed out there. Boy was my arm hurting after she twisted it so bad!

Then we sold our third car to my son, which gave me just over $3K. After looking at the wood sheds that were offered, I bought a Livetime 18.5 X11' shed:

It does come with a "hard rubber" floor, which I was worried about putting a lift on, so I found a 4x8x1 board to put that on. It has worked out pretty good.

 

[ChriSTian_64]

Wow ! Thank you very much everyone for all your inputs. Lots of very good info in there. Not sure I will be able to answer to all of you this time. But I'll be back in the coming days.

From what you have said, and it match what I'm reading here and there since a couple of weeks : the bigger, the better. We never have enough space. It is especially true if you intend to spend a lot of time in there. And in just a few years, I will be retired, and I can see myself spending lots of time in there, shining the bike, removing this part of fairing, improving this, replacing that. etc.

I too, start to think that 12 x 16 would make it a more enjoyable... comfortable shack. As you said : you need place for a bike (or two), a bench, couple of shelves, tools, parts removed last time (that I don't remember where they go), the dog (always following me any where I go)... and... maybe a grandson looking at what grandpa is doing on is bike, or a friend showing me how to fix it.

Around here I think you can build a shed of 120 square feet or less without a building permit and without it affecting property tax. That is why there are a lot of 10 x 12 or smaller sheds in people’s backyard.

Yeah, good point Gerhard. I have to check that with the city. I saw this info on a few commercial web sites, selling sheds and mini garages.

For the walls thickness, OK, 2x4 might do it. Could be good enough for insulation. But... the 2x6 also supports more weight. Every winter, we have 2-3 feet of snow on the roof, sometimes more.
Not a big problem... snow is not that heavy... unless it start raining on it. Then, the snow act as a sponge : it retains water. Then... then it becomes pretty heavy.

For the inside walls, yes, I'm planning to use OSB.

And for the floor now. hum... well, maybe I could use a wooden floor. Not my first choice but... yeah, it seems that the city consider a wooden floor as a "portable" building, and it doen't affect your taxes, and you don;t need to have the plans approved by an engineer, dosn;t have the obligation to be code compliants, etc.
Wood might also be warmer than un-heated concrete during winter. And yes, it is also possible to re-inforce some parts, where the center stand or jack / lift will be (SupraSabre).

Wow, that is a nice shed Raymond ! GUD WRK OM, W0QNX, FROM VE2VAE. 73.
Yeah, pressure treated is a must for the floor. I like the way you made it. I have a small lawn (7000 sq. ft.) so, my shed will probably be a bit smaller.

For electricity, yes, electricity is cheap over here in Quebec, We have plenty, from hydro-electricity from dams on rivers.
So probably that electric heating, and maybe just a minimum, will be good enough, as mention by Andrew Shadow and Bmacleod.

I will probably put a simple direct bury cable (as I already have for a second shed, left by previous owner).
I will calculate the power I need. I'm planning to keep it to a minimum. A few outlets, LED lights.
Hey, can you believe our entire house was running on a 130 amps until recently ? hi hi. It is a very small mansion.
We now have 400 amps. Or... is it 200 ?

[...] I would consider solar. [...] it produces enough power to keep the beer cold, run lights and have a couple of outlets.

Gerhard, it gets so cold over here during winter time, that we need a heater to keep the beer Cold... ;-)
A good friend have an off grid chalet, and he also runs the fridge and the lighting on solar panels and 12V batteries.

If part of the enjoyment for you is building it yourself than this might not matter to you, but I have found that it is difficult to build smaller buildings the size of sheds for less than what they can be purchased. Just for pricing comparisons have a look at Cabanon Fontaine. .

Yes Andrew. Building it is part of the fun. I like to work manually. 30 years ago I worked in the construction with my father, for a while.
I will go back to see Cabanon Fontaine's web site. There is also Cabanon Mirabel (I from the north shore).
It is true that sometimes, when they made them by thousands, they can have good prices.
Home Depot and others hardware also have kits, or packages. But from what I can see, with those packages, you get what you pay for, and sometimes a bit less.

$ 3000 (or approx.) is not a big budget. But that is already more than what I paid for my pristine ST1100. hi hi ;-)

oh woow, I just saw the time... Time to go to bed.
I will come back tomorrow and/or the coming days to continue this and reconsider some aspects.
Thanks again for all your inputs. Very appreciated.
I'll be back. Thaks again.

 

[RaYzerman]

Ah yes the snow... I have a steel roof on mine and I'd say 5/12 pitched roof is ideal and it will slide right off when the sun hits it... but, plan ahead, that sometimes happens all at once and it will pile up.... so I installed some aluminum angle across it part way up to keep it from coming all at once.... but I get a fraction of your snow... 2x4 walls to support it aren't a problem, it's your roof that counts in that case, even so, very strong given the relatively small size. You might be wise to design some trusses instead of regular rafters depending if you're spanning the 16' or the 12'.

 

[T_C]

Years ago, I borrowed a propane salamander to try in my garage. One day it was -10 or so and I fired up the heater and in 10-15 minutes it was warm enough to work in a t-shirt (probably +15 or so). However, the fast temp rise caused a lot of condensation to form on my tools.

That happens and it's not being helped by the method of heating. Burning propane cleanly gives you two types of molecules in the exhaust, CO2 and H2O. You just compounded the problem by raising the humidity a considerable percent.

 

[ReSTored]

I'm not certain how to do a heater BTU watts etc....sizing calculation but you can probably find this online. If you're going to get a thermostatically controlled baseboard type electric heater because Hydro is cheap in Quebec install it so you can leave the stat at 20C, but the power is switchable from inside your house. This way you turn on the heater x hours before you plan to be in the shed and avoid a trip to the shed just to turn the heater on.

 

[Skunkape]

I'm seeing lots of videos of motorcycle sheds with wooden floor. I don't know... maybe if I lived in Florida.. but... I don't know. In 20 years, it will rot, and how do you insulate your floor then.

If you lived if Florida it would rot in 20 minutes.

Ever think of buying a used enclosed trailer? They aren't too expensive, can be moved easily and sold when you are finished with it.