Transmissions and clutches

the Ferret

the Ferret

Daily rider since May 1965
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
1,853
Age
74
Location
So-Oh
Bike
21 NC750 14 CB1100
2025 Miles
001217
In another thread we were talking about the Honda DCT trans, with a follow up comment on the new Honda E-Clutch trans

...... which got me thinking about motorcycle transmissions and clutches in general

Being pretty old (soon to be 75) and have ridden a lot (60 years of street riding in a couple of months) I have experienced a lot of different clutch and transmission types

The first I suppose was my dad's flat head Harley 45 ci with a 3-speed belly shift on the left side and a left side foot clutch. That was followed by riding my best friend's 1964 Honda C110 50cc sport with an automatic clutch and 4 speed transmission that you just backed off the gas and pushed the left side heel-toe shift lever up or down. In 1965 I got my own first street bike an Italian Aermacchi badged Harley Davidson M-50 with a 3 speed in the left hand called a cascade shift that you pulled in the left-hand clutch and then twisted the grip up or down to select gears. My first 74 ci Harley Panhead had a 4-speed left foot shift with what was referred to as a "mouse trap" mechanism for pulling in the clutch. My 59 Sportster (and my 69 BSA 750) both had a left-hand clutch and shifted 4 times on the right side. My 69 Honda CB 350 had 5 gears on the left with left hand clutch. My 73 RD 350 Yamaha had left hand clutch and 6 speeds that you shifted on the left. My 06 Yamaha Majesty scooter had a CVT trans with no clutch and no gears, just gas and go and my Honda NC 750X has Honda's DCT trans with 6 speeds and no clutch, but buttons on the left and right that you use to manually shift if you want to or stick it in one of 4 modes and let the trans do all the shifting for you.

So, in the last 60 years, I have ridden 3 speeds, 4 speeds, 5 speeds, 6 speeds, left hand shift, left foot shift, right foot shift, no shift CVT and push button shift DCT.

I wonder if I will live long enough to try out the Honda E-Clutch and how I will perceive it compared to other systems I have tried.

I used to believe that "mastering a clutch" made you something special, I meant it felt good to master a clutch, making smooth engagements of power and well-timed shifts, but I no longer believe that. I've watched 6 years olds racing clutch equipped mini-bikes using a clutch, gears and brakes as well as any seasoned adult. Literally with a little practice, anyone can do it. All clutches and transmissions whether manual or automatic are just means of transferring power from the engine to the wheels. Different but the same, they all have their plusses and minuses according to the desires of the person sitting on the seat.

So, where is this going? Nowhere... just the ramblings of an old motorcycle guy snowed in in February, unable to ride today, that thought he had seen it all, but realizing there is still a lot more to come.
 
yep, using the newest technology to make things easier for current and perspective buyers, and they really have made things easier, and that's not a bad thing.
 
Some day when I am totally bored out of my mind,I will start writing my memoirs about being a Transmission rebuilder. If you really want to learn how to drive a standard ,start with ones that are broken. Best advice I can give anyone is wait a couple of years before getting new technology gives the company's time to get it fixed. I would consider a DCT bike for one reason and that is arthritis in my left hand. I avoid riding in the city as much as possible, don't like holding in the clutch at stop lights so against safety rule "#what ever" I'm usually sitting in neutral.
Love driving standard cars of course but since I broke my left knee cap Roller skating many years ago,all of my personal cars have been automatics. One of the fun things is the Wife's VW powered Dune buggy, which is a standard 4 speed, which reminds me,got adjust the clutch free play.
 
Reminded of other transmission set ups, only one of which I have tried. In 1976 I test rode the Honda CB 750A a 2 speed automatic with torque converter type transmission. Honda also had a CB 400A which I believe was the same type trans. I think Moto Guzzi had a similar 1000cc unit in the late 70's called the 1000 Convert. Also Yamaha had a FJR 1300 variant that required shifting but no clutch I believe. The Aprilia Mana 850 I believe has a CVT type auto trans motorcycle.

I have also never ridden a bike with a quick shifter, which I understand means you can shift up or down without using the manual clutch, but must use the manual clutch when coming to a stop.

Are there any types of motorcycle clutches/transmissions I have missed?

What have you ridden? What are your thoughts on them?
 
the Ferret said:
I have also never ridden a bike with a quick shifter, which I understand means you can shift up or down without using the manual clutch, but must use the manual clutch when coming to a stop.
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That's what the RT and GS have and they work really well... you can wait until you are almost completely stopped before pulling in the clutch.. upshift from 1-2 and 2-3 can be a little clunky so I typically still use the clutch for that. I hated that the tracer was only and UP shifter... they are now up and down..
 
Mellow said:
That's what the RT and GS have and they work really well... you can wait until you are almost completely stopped before pulling in the clutch.. upshift from 1-2 and 2-3 can be a little clunky so I typically still use the clutch for that. I hated that the tracer was only and UP shifter... they are now up and down..
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Joe does it momentarily kill the motor when you put pressure on the shift lever or how does it work? and can you do it at any speed and rpm?
 
the Ferret said:
Joe does it momentarily kill the motor when you put pressure on the shift lever or how does it work? and can you do it at any speed and rpm?
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If it does, it's not noticeable. I think it blips the throttle... The upshifts are great if you are accelerating. If you aren't then it can get confused so you have to be confident on your foot-movements.

For downshifts, it's smoother when you are off throttle. Honestly, I don't really pay attention to it much and I've gotten so used to it it's muscle memory now. The BMW version worked much better than the Yamaha version but again, that one was only up shifts.

The RT is much smoother than the GS for some reason. But both are nice to have and so much so I don't want to look at a bike without them.
 
Interesting topic. I had a1982 Honda CB900C with a dual speed transmission. Dual foot lever on left to put transmission in Low (city) and High ( cruising). Was a fun bike. Once I tried shifting trucker style from 1st gear low to 1st gear high, wasn’t a good idea, it took too long and my clutch hand couldn’t keep up.
 
the Ferret said:
In another thread we were talking about the Honda DCT trans, with a follow up comment on the new Honda E-Clutch trans

...... which got me thinking about motorcycle transmissions and clutches in general

Being pretty old (soon to be 75) and have ridden a lot (60 years of street riding in a couple of months) I have experienced a lot of different clutch and transmission types

The first I suppose was my dad's flat head Harley 45 ci with a 3-speed belly shift on the left side and a left side foot clutch. That was followed by riding my best friend's 1964 Honda C110 50cc sport with an automatic clutch and 4 speed transmission that you just backed off the gas and pushed the left side heel-toe shift lever up or down. In 1965 I got my own first street bike an Italian Aermacchi badged Harley Davidson M-50 with a 3 speed in the left hand called a cascade shift that you pulled in the left-hand clutch and then twisted the grip up or down to select gears. My first 74 ci Harley Panhead had a 4-speed left foot shift with what was referred to as a "mouse trap" mechanism for pulling in the clutch. My 59 Sportster (and my 69 BSA 750) both had a left-hand clutch and shifted 4 times on the right side. My 69 Honda CB 350 had 5 gears on the left with left hand clutch. My 73 RD 350 Yamaha had left hand clutch and 6 speeds that you shifted on the left. My 06 Yamaha Majesty scooter had a CVT trans with no clutch and no gears, just gas and go and my Honda NC 750X has Honda's DCT trans with 6 speeds and no clutch, but buttons on the left and right that you use to manually shift if you want to or stick it in one of 4 modes and let the trans do all the shifting for you.

So, in the last 60 years, I have ridden 3 speeds, 4 speeds, 5 speeds, 6 speeds, left hand shift, left foot shift, right foot shift, no shift CVT and push button shift DCT.

I wonder if I will live long enough to try out the Honda E-Clutch and how I will perceive it compared to other systems I have tried.

I used to believe that "mastering a clutch" made you something special, I meant it felt good to master a clutch, making smooth engagements of power and well-timed shifts, but I no longer believe that. I've watched 6 years olds racing clutch equipped mini-bikes using a clutch, gears and brakes as well as any seasoned adult. Literally with a little practice, anyone can do it. All clutches and transmissions whether manual or automatic are just means of transferring power from the engine to the wheels. Different but the same, they all have their plusses and minuses according to the desires of the person sitting on the seat.

So, where is this going? Nowhere... just the ramblings of an old motorcycle guy snowed in in February, unable to ride today, that thought he had seen it all, but realizing there is still a lot more to come.
Click to expand...
I get a giggle when I read from someone saying that they have been riding since Moby Dick was a minnow and they won’t consider DCT because they would forget to pull the clutch lever on their manual transmission bike. Our brains are wonderfully made and able to learn thousands of intricate conscious muscle movements in series then store them in the lower brain to be pulled up and executed with little to no conscious effort even years later. You are amazing Mickey with all those bikes and adding in the archery stuff….
 
dduelin said:
I get a giggle when I read from someone saying that they have been riding since Moby Dick was a minnow and they won’t consider DCT because they would forget to pull the clutch lever on their manual transmission bike. Our brains are wonderfully made and able to learn thousands of intricate conscious muscle movements in series then store them in the lower brain to be pulled up and executed with little to no conscious effort even years later. You are amazing Mickey with all those bikes and adding in the archery stuff….
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I'm open to it but I just like the engagement of interacting with the bike.
 
I used to have a VW beetle with an Auto-Stick. Basically it was a manual transmission that had a switch built into the gearshift lever that operated the clutch with a solenoid valve and vacuum actuator when you shifted gears. I remember driving down the highway and accidentally hitting the shift lever and the engine would rev up.
 
Mellow said:
I'm open to it but I just like the engagement of interacting with the bike.
Click to expand...
It sounds too simple but clutching and moving a foot & hand in concert are just parts of the total experience of riding. Removing them or loosing them might sound like losing the essential part of riding a motorcycle but it's not a zero sum game. Gaining a gearbox with options from full manual to overriding programmed automatic shift points to full automatic opens up the opportunity to learn how to use the options to fully exploit the technology. It can't be learned in a 15 minute demo ride. There is a reason that DCT is not allowed in MotoGp because of the unfair performance advantages it gives compared to a manual boxes even with quick shifters. Riding a DCT bike is not riding without engagement with the bike unless you want it to be....... just like riding a manual motorcycle with your thoughts somewhere other than riding.
 
Mellow said:
I'm open to it but I just like the engagement of interacting with the bike.
Click to expand...
I can understand that some people just want to shift, I get it. I too enjoy going down a curvy road making smooth and timely upshifts and downshifts. It's fun and satisfying. Then again when you use a quick shifter don't you remove 50 % of that interaction?

dduelin alluded to the versatility of the DCT, which a lot of people who havent ridden or are unfamiliar with the DCT might not realize or understand. You can put the DCT in full manual shift mode and aggressively run it to redline before hitting the upshift paddle to engage the next gear, or come into a turn and blip the downshift paddle to downshift a couple of gears. You choose exactly when your shift points are just like with a regular manual transmission bike. You can also put it in one of 3 different automatic modes, standard, sport or rain, each with their own pre programmed up and down shift points .... or program your own "user mode" and just let the trans do its own thing, all the while still being able to blip the upshift or downshift paddles for passing or going up or down hills. It is truly a brilliant system. Very versatile.

I wonder if the new Honda e-clutch will, in use, be like a hybrid of a standard shift/transmission motorcycle and the DCT transmissioned motorcycle. Use the clutch and shift lever like a " normal" motorcycle or just let it do its own thing like on a DCT only without the ability to choose from multiple pre programmed modes

Like I said, going to be interesting. Hope to ride one someday.
 
St-Gerard said:
Some day when I am totally bored out of my mind,I will start writing my memoirs about being a Transmission rebuilder.
Click to expand...
It is a fun thing to look back on, I have done transmissions, but not as a specialty. I remember assembling a triple countershaft Dod trans from a box. Or explaining why you don't tow a standard transmission in truck without pulling driveline. Also other parts of trucks and cars have some good stories. It is always awesome to learn others experiences. Write away, would love to hear some
 
Sunday Rider said:
Interesting topic. I had a1982 Honda CB900C with a dual speed transmission. Dual foot lever on left to put transmission in Low (city) and High ( cruising). Was a fun bike. Once I tried shifting trucker style from 1st gear low to 1st gear high, wasn’t a good idea, it took too long and my clutch hand couldn’t keep up.
Click to expand...
yep I forgot about that one, used on both the 900 custom and 1000 custom. If I remember correctly Honda used a sub trans because the drive on the inline 4 motor was on the left, but they used a Gold Wing shaft drive rear end which was on the right, and they used the sub trans to transfer power from 1 side to the other
 
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One of my favorite stories is having a Rambler with a standard trans stuck in second grade, no kidding. Second gear was welded to the output shaft.
At work,rarely made a mistake been driving a standard versus an automatic car. Not so after hours, remember my Dad and I switched cars for some reason , anyway I'm driving to a restaurant with some of the gang from the roller rink, when someone cuts me off. With out thinking my left foot has instantly depressed the clutch pedal, did I mention Dad owned a 71 Town and Country 440 automatic Chrysler station wagon. Yeah you get picture, locked up all four tires and unseated my passengers. My car at the time was a 1980 Amx 4 speed.
 
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Last night I remembered an unusual transmission set up for the 1966 Bridgestone 175 motorcycle which utilized a "rotary shift pattern". I saw one once in the late 60's, but never rode one.

Cycle World described the transmission as such:

The transmission setup used by Bridgestone for the Dual-Twin is unusual — and until you have ridden the bike a while you may wonder why they have provided a combined 4 and 5-speed gearbox. A small lever on the side of the case is used to select a 4-speed "rotary" pattern (neutral, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, then neutral again and one more forward dab selects 1st); or a straight 5-speed (1st, neutral, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th). Ratios are: 1st — 2.61:1 ; 2nd — 1.67:1; 3rd — 1.24:1; 4th — 1.00:1; 5th — 0.85:1. You will note that 5th is an overdrive, and with the standard gearing it feels like just that.

When the "4-speed-rotary" combination is selected, the overdrive 5th is eliminated, which limits cruising speed. However, it does make for convenient city-street riding. No problems with finding neutral, which is just a nudge away from 4th, and no back-shifting when you stop for a traffic light. When the full 5-speeds are in use, there is a definite problem in finding neutral; if you don't get neutral before rolling to a stop, you won't get it at all. Also, the gear-change mechanism is a bit notchy on the shifts to 3rd and 5th. By and large, though, the transmission works very nicely, and the ratios are staged just right for the sporting rider. First is a bit tall, and one must slip the clutch when getting away from a stop, which really creates no problem because the bike has an excellent clutch.
 
Some early trail bikes, Hondas and Suzukis if I recall, with had a dual high speed/low speed arrangement chosen by switching a lever allowing for 5 gears with a higher ratio for the street and 5 gears for a lower ratio for the trails
 
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