From reading other threads here, you won't be just handing Larry (Igofar) wrenches if you take your bike to him. He explains everything he does - the hows and wherefores and why's as he goes. You are his student. Bring a notebook (better yet, a recording device) and be prepared for the lesson of your life in motorcycle mechanics. Seriously, if you are even thinking of doing this, PM him - go to post #9 above, hover your cursor over the blue igofar name, and click on start a conversation. Send him your phone number n wait for him to call you back.
Need Help. What would you do? Surging and power loss
- Thread starter ScottyG
- Start date
It didn't occur to me to really check when it's not under load. Typically, I choke it and start the engine and let it warm a little a few rev's and then off I go. I've never heard it surge when I have been idling in neutral.
ignition issues can be RPM and/or load dependent and can sometimes be demonstrated while revving the engine through the normal riding RPM range while in neutral. If you haven't tried it, it would be worth a try.
BTW, ignition issues wouldn't really explain the surging, but could explain the noticeable power drops. The fact that you have two different problems, power surge and power loss would probably indicate more of a fuel related cause, but ruling out ignition issues for the power loss would be helpful in your cause.
Sadlsor
Site Supporter
Had a 19-year-old female college student in a recent BRC class this spring do exactly that.
Her Toyota Camry stranded her in a parking lot the evening before our class, so she called her dad out of town for help. He told her what she needed, a guy friend drove her to AutoZone where she bought the alternator, and took her back to her car.
She called dad back and he talked her through the process, and her "helpful" friend was astounded. Other than driving her to get the alternator, he was not much help, really. I think she said he broke loose one of the tight bolts for her.
Then she drove 200 miles to get to the BRC class the next morning.
And she incidentally scored the best of everyone, on her BRC Skill Eval.
Just for icing on the proverbial cake, she was quite attractive. And was in school studying to become an airline pilot.
Nice story
Thanks to every who offered helpful suggestions. I decided with the encouragement that I need to work through the issues and learn through the process. I hope once this problem is solved and I put a LOT of miles of bike that I can pay it forward to someone new like me who joined the forum. I will definitely post what happened when I can get it done. I'm going out of town for a week so I can't try to do some of the things suggested right away, but will definitely give it a go when I return.
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The reason for the questions. It is possible that the HT leads and/or plug caps are bad. Yes, I know they were checked in an early post. Nevertheless ......
Briefly, the copper core inside the HT lead can rot. Verdigris. Copper Oxide. It is a crumbly, light green copper equivalent of rust. When it starts to go, it creates a gap in the conductivity. Sometimes the extra revs can give a bit of extra of High Voltage to allow the spark to jump the gap. Sometimes it can't. The plug cap and the HT cable separate and standard copper cored HT lead can be used as an emergency replacement. The cable is a push fit at the coil end and a screw fit at the plug end. The resistance of the plug cap without the cable should be 5k ohms. The coil itself needs to be earthed to the chassis. That earth can corrode.
Detail of this and of my experience with the 1300 are in the link below, but it is all relevant to the 1100. A Honda dealer told me it was old and Ok for its age. I subsequently fixed it.
ST1300 Poor Running - HT Leads & Plugs - Solved | ST1300 Related
Describing an issue with poor running on my ST1300. Symptoms were engine seemed to be running fine except with little low end power and a sensation of always riding on a rough surface. Revs had to be kept up in order to set off safely. It turned out to be HT leads and plug caps. Details...
The second question about the ABS is a remote possibility, but it is very easy to check by pressing a switch. Let me explain. The Traction Control System works by cutting ignition to one or more cylinders (I think that is what I read) [edit] @Andrew Shadow kindly corrected me - it works by retarding the ignition [/edit] when it determines that the rear wheel is rotating faster than the front wheel. When it is starting to fail, the effect is intermittent, and can result is some pretty erratic behaviour - and if it cuts when accelerating hard, you can get pretty close and personal with the inside of the windscreen ! It will leave you struggling to get power riding along at 10 km/h in the gutter, and then suddenly spring into life.
The issue in this case is not with the ignition, but with the pulsar ring and / or sensors. But if you turn TCS off, then the bike rides normally. The TCS 'switch' is not a switch as such. When you turn on ignition, it is always active. To turn it off, you have to press the TCS switch after the dash lights have settled down and before you set off (I think). The operation of the switch can be verified by the Tcs lamp on the dash. Just press it and see if it makes a difference. If this sounds a little vague, its because I cannot remember exactly how and when it operates - its been a long time since I sold my 2000 ST1100AY, but I remember I had to do it at the start of each ride until my sensor failed completely. It is more likely to do it when travelling above 10km/h, but that doesn't mean odd signals can't make it happen at standstill. Just turn it off and see if it improves. If it doesn't then that eliminates this as a possibility.
Finally from me, the vacuum tubes that are capped and stick out slightly above each cylinder head - if they leak, can lead to a very poor running engine, difficult to coax up to speed - but can result in much backfiring and surging - or did when of mine became fully detached. I dont know how they would behave if one tube was just split or cracked - but I am not convinced about this as a suggestion in your case.
The right rear tube is normally attached to the fuel cut off valve to provide vacuum to turn the fuel on. I think you said that yours had been by-passed ?
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Smudgemo
Intermodal Man of Mystery
If the bike is not problematic when it's not all heated up, the fuel pump probably isn't only suffering from heat-induced issues. A simple test would be as outlined in the response to this thread: http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?topic=7954.0
You do need to jump the pump to the battery to make it work when the engine isn't running, though. Use a clean container and you can dump the fuel right back in. I should have tested mine before replacing the pump (just to get a reading), but I already knew it was impacted by heat so I didn't care. At least this test is free if you don't destroy the fuel line when you remove it.
You do need to jump the pump to the battery to make it work when the engine isn't running, though. Use a clean container and you can dump the fuel right back in. I should have tested mine before replacing the pump (just to get a reading), but I already knew it was impacted by heat so I didn't care. At least this test is free if you don't destroy the fuel line when you remove it.
Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
One other possibility - bit doubtful - is the fuel pump relay. I did have one of those go bad but it is rare.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Yes the "fuel valve vacuum unit" has be removed and from my view has been bypassed correctly. I did get the article posted on this site about that. I love have pictures and setting my laptop nearby so I can know exactly what I'm touching. I will check on the idea of turning TCS off and see if it makes a difference.The reason for the questions. It is possible that the HT leads and/or plug caps are bad. Yes, I know they were checked in an early post. Nevertheless ......
Briefly, the copper core inside the HT lead can rot. Verdigris. Copper Oxide. It is a crumbly, light green copper equivalent of rust. When it starts to go, it creates a gap in the conductivity. Sometimes the extra revs can give a bit of extra of High Voltage to allow the spark to jump the gap. Sometimes it can't. The plug cap and the HT cable separate and standard copper cored HT lead can be used as an emergency replacement. The cable is a push fit at the coil end and a screw fit at the plug end. The resistance of the plug cap without the cable should be 5k ohms. The coil itself needs to be earthed to the chassis. That earth can corrode.
Detail of this and of my experience with the 1300 are in the link below, but it is all relevant to the 1100. A Honda dealer told me it was old and Ok for its age. I subsequently fixed it.
ST1300 Poor Running - HT Leads & Plugs - Solved | ST1300 Related
Describing an issue with poor running on my ST1300. Symptoms were engine seemed to be running fine except with little low end power and a sensation of always riding on a rough surface. Revs had to be kept up in order to set off safely. It turned out to be HT leads and plug caps. Details...www.st-owners.com
The second question about the ABS is a remote possibility, but it is very easy to check by pressing a switch. Let me explain. The Traction Control System works by cutting ignition to one or more cylinders (I think that is what I read) when it determines that the rear wheel is rotating faster than the front wheel. When it is starting to fail, the effect is intermittent, and can result is some pretty erratic behaviour - and if it cuts when accelerating hard, you can get pretty close and personal with the inside of the windscreen ! It will leave you struggling to get power riding along at 10 km/h in the gutter, and then suddenly spring into life.
The issue in this case is not with the ignition, but with the pulsar ring and / or sensors. But if you turn TCS off, then the bike rides normally. The TCS 'switch' is not a switch as such. When you turn on ignition, it is always active. To turn it off, you have to press the TCS switch after the dash lights have settled down and before you set off (I think). The operation of the switch can be verified by the Tcs lamp on the dash. Just press it and see if it makes a difference. If this sounds a little vague, its because I cannot remember exactly how and when it operates - its been a long time since I sold my 2000 ST1100AY, but I remember I had to do it at the start of each ride until my sensor failed completely. It is more likely to do it when travelling above 10km/h, but that doesn't mean odd signals can't make it happen at standstill. Just turn it off and see if it improves. If it doesn't then that eliminates this as a possibility.
Finally from me, the vacuum tubes that are capped and stick out slightly above each cylinder head - if they leak, can lead to a very poor running engine, difficult to coax up to speed - but can result in much backfiring and surging - or did when of mine became fully detached. I dont know how they would behave if one tube was just split or cracked - but I am not convinced about this as a suggestion in your case.
The right rear tube is normally attached to the fuel cut off valve to provide vacuum to turn the fuel on. I think you said that yours had been by-passed ?
Thanks for the thread link. We I can back I really need to check and make sure the fuel pump is working properly!!
Pop-Pop
Site Supporter
Too late!Oh yeah, and please....
Don't listen to our fellow UK members if they ask you to bring a torch near the open gas tank, to have a look inside.
By that, they simply mean a flashlight, not a flamming torch.
You mentioned hearing boiling sounds when the weather was hot. There should be a rubber mat between the engine and carbs to insulate them from the heat of the engine. If that is missing, the carbs could get hot enough to vapor lock. Peeking with a flashlight (not a torch!) would eliminate this as a possible cause.
"THANKS! THANKS! I did have a earlier incident right after I bought the bike. It was pretty hot here in Denver and I was looking over the bike after a ride. I opened the tank and it was low and looked like the gas was bubbling or boiling. THIS CAN"T BE GOOD! So I left cap off until everything cooled down and went to the forum and read some of the posts on the vented. So I worked with it and it seem to be venting okay and I haven't seen it again."
The fuel pump has a pressure relief bypass that flows gas back to the gas tank. With the fuel level low, it may have looked to be boiling.
The fuel pump has a pressure relief bypass that flows gas back to the gas tank. With the fuel level low, it may have looked to be boiling.
ChriSTian_64
Site Supporter
Hey, Scott, @ScottyG , I was just re-visiting Mark Martin's page on his ST1100's maintenance, and I came across this article on his site, where someone experienced about the same symptoms that you have.
Maybe it could help you. Have a look.
"For the next 18 months we fought with this issue as it would come and go at random. The symptoms were loss of power and hesitations."
Maybe it could help you. Have a look.
"For the next 18 months we fought with this issue as it would come and go at random. The symptoms were loss of power and hesitations."
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
It retards the ignition timing to reduce engine power to regain traction. I believe it will retard the timing up to a maximum of 20 degrees.
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Thanks for the correction @Andrew Shadow . I must remind myself not to rely on my memory for information. But I'll forget.
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
You are not alone, memory is a bit......
I remembered that it worked by retarding the ignition timing. I also clearly remember reading somewhere that it was to a maximum of 20 degrees. When I went to look it up just to confirm, do you think I can find where I saw that now? Of course not.
A defect in this system that causes the traction control to activate erratically and retard the timing spontaneously and in an uncontrolled manner would cause the symptoms that he has described. The primary motivation for me responding was to clarify what this system does in the event that it is playing a role in his problem, not to correct you John.
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- Joined
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I never have had a problem with being corrected or challenged. I think its good. I find that I learn and remember more that way.
My primitive understanding is that when you learn something new the brain organises nodes and pathways to help to recall the information. It does this when sleeping. Each time it visits an existing node, it triggers recall of info - which might explain why dreams pop up all sorts of seemingly unrelated information which make perfect sense when you are dreaming. If you want to solve a problem, bombard your brain with related information and sleep on it. You'll have the answer when you wake up. I used to use that technique a lot when problem solving.
Except. As I get older, I find my brain doing odd things. Some of the nodes don't seem to be there any more. I can't recall some information that I know was there yesterday. Hell, I cant remember some information from two minutes ago sometimes. Its as if the path to access it has gone. But at some random time, another path to the same info will be triggered by something else - like walking back to the place where I last remembered it. I go to the garage armed with something in each hand. Stand in the doorway of the garage, looking at the motorbike and wonder what the hell I was intending to do with a wooden spoon and a roll of tape. I have to go back to the house to 'pick up the memory'.
Sometimes a piece of information becomes mis-filed. Perhaps It has been reattached to the wrong node. So memories of two separate things become merged - it becomes a false memory. Everything I remember has actually happened, but not necessarily at the same time. Different people were there and I've substituted a different motorcycle for that trip. But until it is corrected, to me, the false memory is the real version.
It only requires a proper memory-jog to put it right. Perhaps an argument with someone who claims that they weren't there in the memory you are describing. Or a photograph, or diary. Or a correction. Armed with the correct version of events, the brain can form new nodes and pathways, and the memory is restored. At least until the new nodes disappear.
I find it fascinating. I know nowt about it, but I like my version of what I think I understand. It works for me. I clean my teeth whilst balancing on one leg, cos it turns out that my brain had forgotten how to do it and needed to be reminded. The only reason I stood next to the bed when getting dressed was in case I fell over. Now I don't need to. I absolutely welcome new information and corrections. I think it helps to keep my brain working properly.
Yeah, right.
What was the question ?
My primitive understanding is that when you learn something new the brain organises nodes and pathways to help to recall the information. It does this when sleeping. Each time it visits an existing node, it triggers recall of info - which might explain why dreams pop up all sorts of seemingly unrelated information which make perfect sense when you are dreaming. If you want to solve a problem, bombard your brain with related information and sleep on it. You'll have the answer when you wake up. I used to use that technique a lot when problem solving.
Except. As I get older, I find my brain doing odd things. Some of the nodes don't seem to be there any more. I can't recall some information that I know was there yesterday. Hell, I cant remember some information from two minutes ago sometimes. Its as if the path to access it has gone. But at some random time, another path to the same info will be triggered by something else - like walking back to the place where I last remembered it. I go to the garage armed with something in each hand. Stand in the doorway of the garage, looking at the motorbike and wonder what the hell I was intending to do with a wooden spoon and a roll of tape. I have to go back to the house to 'pick up the memory'.
Sometimes a piece of information becomes mis-filed. Perhaps It has been reattached to the wrong node. So memories of two separate things become merged - it becomes a false memory. Everything I remember has actually happened, but not necessarily at the same time. Different people were there and I've substituted a different motorcycle for that trip. But until it is corrected, to me, the false memory is the real version.
It only requires a proper memory-jog to put it right. Perhaps an argument with someone who claims that they weren't there in the memory you are describing. Or a photograph, or diary. Or a correction. Armed with the correct version of events, the brain can form new nodes and pathways, and the memory is restored. At least until the new nodes disappear.
I find it fascinating. I know nowt about it, but I like my version of what I think I understand. It works for me. I clean my teeth whilst balancing on one leg, cos it turns out that my brain had forgotten how to do it and needed to be reminded. The only reason I stood next to the bed when getting dressed was in case I fell over. Now I don't need to. I absolutely welcome new information and corrections. I think it helps to keep my brain working properly.
Yeah, right.
What was the question ?
ChriSTian_64
Site Supporter
@jfheath John, talking about memory, you probably heard this one before :
- Doctor, I think I might have alzheimer. I start to forget everything.
- Hum, OK, lets see that. Since when do you have this problem ?
- Wich problem ?
Now, very true what you said.
I saw a documentary last year on how memory works, and this is exactly what they were explaining.
At first, we remember a version of something.
Then, as years pass, without we notice it, our memory is altered.
And ten, twenty, forty years later, the same person, could recall a slightly different version.
I see it now, with my mother, She is 87. And the more it goes, the more she mixes details from the past. I don't tell her. It doesn't matter.
But, I am glad I have asked her, twenty years ago, to write her story (for us): her childhood, her younger years and anything she would like to remember and tell about her life.
She had went thru so many things. I wanted to know how she felt then and why she did this or that. What was her motivation. etc.
I believe many of us, if not all of us, have had an unbelievable life. Times pass, and we start to forget about it, forget the numerous miracles in our life.
- Doctor, I think I might have alzheimer. I start to forget everything.
- Hum, OK, lets see that. Since when do you have this problem ?
- Wich problem ?
Now, very true what you said.
I saw a documentary last year on how memory works, and this is exactly what they were explaining.
At first, we remember a version of something.
Then, as years pass, without we notice it, our memory is altered.
And ten, twenty, forty years later, the same person, could recall a slightly different version.
I see it now, with my mother, She is 87. And the more it goes, the more she mixes details from the past. I don't tell her. It doesn't matter.
But, I am glad I have asked her, twenty years ago, to write her story (for us): her childhood, her younger years and anything she would like to remember and tell about her life.
She had went thru so many things. I wanted to know how she felt then and why she did this or that. What was her motivation. etc.
I believe many of us, if not all of us, have had an unbelievable life. Times pass, and we start to forget about it, forget the numerous miracles in our life.
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