And for the next trip…

Whose responsibility is it, for controlling the vehicle?
If someone near the roadway is not IN the roadway, they are not a danger, any more than kayakers or rafters are, in a river that is next to the road.
 
FastST said:
Inexperienced riders at the Dragon are looking at them and going wide. Photographers MUST be shooting from the inside of a corner only.
Click to expand...

In a way your comment corroborates my comment about the skill/attention required to ride technical roads. Kanyarfoto's ride fail videos show riders, who at least at that moment on video, look like they are in over the heads when making the tight right-hand inside corners he films. I have literally gone around thousands of switchbacks in the Alps in 40 years and roads like Stelvio's with their blind, tight U-turn corners and off-camber pavement require a certain level of skill to navigate as safely as other less technical roads, especially 2 up and fully loaded (much more work on Stelvio than riding solo). I see 10, 20 or more of these photographers on the inside/outside of passes every summer. A skilled rider who pays attention to his/her riding does not get distracted by these photogs who are sitting/kneeling along the side of the road.
 
Moto-Charlie said:
A skilled rider who pays attention to his/her riding does not get distracted by these photogs who are sitting/kneeling along the side of the road.
Click to expand...
This is what prompted me to write my comment in Post 41... an experienced / skilled rider (not necessarily the same thing) would focus on his turns and on looking ahead, and an INexperienced rider or one in over his head, even moreso.

The photographer is not riding the bike, and bears no responsibility for what happens to the rider.
 
I get your comments, and although they make sense, you don't know what kind of a rider is approaching you on the other side. Can you trust them? I saw a bad accident when 2 bikes collided on a Dragon. Sure, European bikers are more skilled, but you still never know who may approach you posing for a photo. It takes just one second to ruin the line.
I just saw one photographer (I think down de l'Iseran) and he was on the inside of a corner. At least that's safer.
 
FastST said:
I saw a bad accident when 2 bikes collided on a Dragon.
Click to expand...
I have a series of pics from one such accident. The rider in the inside lane on a right-hand curve ran wide.

I don't now if it's okay to post them here. They were posted but then removed, if I remember correctly.

Opinions?
 
Crashes - head-on's - on Hwy 129 do not occur only at photo tents. And a photographer, a classic vintage Corvette, or a hot chick flashing her chest while standing in an open-top Jeep, all happen.

Many times riders will ride in places or in a manner beyond beyond their skill level, and not only on the Dragon. Cars will cross the center line, pickup trucks, and other riders do too. Any time, any weather, day or night.

No matter what time of day or season, riding 129 can be hazardous, and complacency can kill you with the limited visibility and technical curves.

Photographers are merely incidental, they are rarely the cause of a crash.

Anyhoo... i think I've made my point.

That's all.
 
Bug Dr. said:
Is there data to support this?
Mike
Click to expand...
I believe Europe's tiered licensing is some evidence.

When I was 14, I got a motorcycle license by taking a written test. No road test. I could not legally drive a car until 2 years later.

Our brothers on the other continent can chime in with personal experience.
 
Bug Dr. said:
Is there data to support this?
Mike
Click to expand...

I do not have "data" to support the comment. As @Sadlsor mentioned, I know that several countries have tiered levels of licensing which lets drivers move up to the next level of license as their skills merit. I believe that they also pay a fair bit for lessons, monitoring, etc. as they work their way towards their full license. Someone in Switzerland once told me the equivalent of $2,000 - $3,000 (haven't confirmed that).

There is no question in my mind that European drivers (at least where I ride in the Alps) are much better in general than American drivers. They are able to drive quicker without wandering into oncoming traffic, they are more polite, use their directionals, etc. and do so on tighter, twistier roads. Cell phones are still mostly prohibited and enforced - same for alcohol consumption. I feel MUCH safer riding a motorcycle over there than I do here.

I would also say that riders who come on my Alps tours for 7, 10, 14 days etc. riding all day every day in the Alps, with all their switchbacks, sweepers, elevation changes, "brisk" riding speeds, etc. all feel that they are riding better at the end of the tour than when the arrived simply because of the nature of the riding. That is certainly true for me. I suspect that if you live there and ride there all time that the riding environment there translates into a more skilled rider.
 
ST1100Y said:
2023...

Lysebotn-gross.jpg


IMG_20230908_082142.jpg

Lysebotn, Norway...
Click to expand...
Been up through that road, and down....
 
Moto-Charlie said:
I do not have "data" to support the comment. As @Sadlsor mentioned, I know that several countries have tiered levels of licensing which lets drivers move up to the next level of license as their skills merit. I believe that they also pay a fair bit for lessons, monitoring, etc. as they work their way towards their full license. Someone in Switzerland once told me the equivalent of $2,000 - $3,000 (haven't confirmed that).

There is no question in my mind that European drivers (at least where I ride in the Alps) are much better in general than American drivers. They are able to drive quicker without wandering into oncoming traffic, they are more polite, use their directionals, etc. and do so on tighter, twistier roads. Cell phones are still mostly prohibited and enforced - same for alcohol consumption. I feel MUCH safer riding a motorcycle over there than I do here.

I would also say that riders who come on my Alps tours for 7, 10, 14 days etc. riding all day every day in the Alps, with all their switchbacks, sweepers, elevation changes, "brisk" riding speeds, etc. all feel that they are riding better at the end of the tour than when the arrived simply because of the nature of the riding. That is certainly true for me. I suspect that if you live there and ride there all time that the riding environment there translates into a more skilled rider.
Click to expand...
Moto-Charlie said:
I would also say that riders who come on my Alps tours for 7, 10, 14 days etc. riding all day every day in the Alps, with all their switchbacks, sweepers, elevation changes, "brisk" riding speeds, etc. all feel that they are riding better at the end of the tour than when the arrived simply because of the nature of the riding. That is certainly true for me. I suspect that if you live there and ride there all time that the riding environment there translates into a more skilled rider.
Click to expand...
Interesting that you've mentioned it. Whenever I am coming back from there, for some time I'm continuing riding European way until suddenly getting reality check, lol
 
Moto-Charlie said:
There is no question in my mind that European drivers (at least where I ride in the Alps) are much better in general than American drivers. They are able to drive quicker without wandering into oncoming traffic, they are more polite, use their directionals, etc. and do so on tighter, twistier roads. Cell phones are still mostly prohibited and enforced - same for alcohol consumption. I feel MUCH safer riding a motorcycle over there than I do here.
Click to expand...
So, in the U.S. you actually have to be more skilled due to how non-motorcycle-minded the drivers are so you have to ride with a mindset that isn't as care-free. The definition of skilled vs cautious I suppose.
Moto-Charlie said:
I would also say that riders who come on my Alps tours for 7, 10, 14 days etc. riding all day every day in the Alps, with all their switchbacks, sweepers, elevation changes, "brisk" riding speeds, etc. all feel that they are riding better at the end of the tour than when the arrived simply because of the nature of the riding. That is certainly true for me. I suspect that if you live there and ride there all time that the riding environment there translates into a more skilled rider.
Click to expand...
If I spend 7 days in the North GA Mtns I'd be a more skilled rider too.

Living where I do, I have to ride 200+ miles to find anything remotely interesting but I always try to ride at 75-80% of my perceived skill level, or less... so I have some buffer if something unpredictable occurs. Also, I feel like every time I get on the bike for a tour I'm re-learning how to ride once I get into some nice twisties.

Even when I'm feeling good, the bike feels like it's part of me and I'm zipping through some nice twisties and everything is perfect.... I only let that happen for a short period because I don't want to be complacent and go past my abilities. Blind corners - I don't trust them, coming up on a hill that has a drop-off I can't see but a left hand sign - I don't trust it.... if I can't see it, I don't trust it.

I don't really care about anyone else's skill level, only mine, which I can control.
 
Last edited:
Moto-Charlie said:
Someone in Switzerland once told me the equivalent of $2,000 - $3,000 (haven't confirmed that).
Click to expand...
Over here
€ 1200,- for the theoretical training...
€ 800,- for 10 guided riding hours (the mandatory minimum BTW, more required if you lack in skills)...
€ 180,- for the mandatory 2 motorway riding hours...
insurance, pre-test fees, final DMV test fees, DMV fees for issuing your license, etc...
Your estimate seems to cover it quite good...

And IMO are "skill levels" rooting in the conditions you train in and are used to...
Cruising a route 66 has absolutely nothing in common with our narrow, crowded, frost beaten, winding alpine passes, riddled with potholes, gravel spots, unpaved roadworks, wet leaves, fog, drizzle, sleet and back-sweeps a mid sized pickup can't get around... that's a different world...

Its like scuba diving: when you learned that trade in cold, dark, algae ridden freshwater lakes with visibility below 5ft and zero navigation points besides your instruments, diving the crystal clear, warm waters of the Bahamas with a vis over 200ft is literally nothing...
(I recall the dive-master ranting on the 3rd day... you guys don't need me... at all... why am I even here...)
 
Last edited:
Mellow said:
you actually have to be more skilled due to how non-motorcycle-minded the drivers are so you have to ride with a mindset that isn't as care-free.
The definition of skilled vs cautious I suppose.
Click to expand...
And over here you have massive variations of character across the countries and nations...
Whilst in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal drivers are so attentive and courteous that you can actually filter and dart through in between the cars at significant speeds, will the behavior change drastically when you come to the Netherlands or Germany, where they just purposely steer right into you for attempting to get by...
GF was first hesitant to follow the local riders and me through the queues in France, to then show a broad grin, simply amazed she remarked "brilliant, why does this not work like this back home?!!"...
Because they're ignorant, envious, egocentrics with no life...
And to guesstimate the possible intentions of the 10 drivers in proximity is a survival skill...
 
I didn't realize Germany and Netherlands borrowed out American resentment of bike filtering... that is good to know.

Although, I suppose any unsuspecting Yank would find out soon enough.
 
Sadlsor said:
I didn't realize Germany and Netherlands borrowed out American resentment of bike filtering... that is good to know.
Click to expand...
As if that wouldn't be the worst are they totally convinced that their regional traffic regulations apply everywhere else in the world...
So while your darting by the queues in/around Paris, you can encounter that one Klingon tourist shutting the door at you... :mad:
 
ST1100Y said:
As if that wouldn't be the worst are they totally convinced that their regional traffic regulations apply everywhere else in the world...
So while your darting by the queues in/around Paris, you can encounter that one Klingon tourist shutting the door at you... :mad:
Click to expand...
Germany is the worst innit. I think it's illegal anyway, I could be wrong.
But they would prefer to see you stuck behind or knocked off and lying on the road.
They're bad drivers too, very inattentive.
Upt.
 
FastST said:
Interesting that you've mentioned it. Whenever I am coming back from there, for some time I'm continuing riding European way until suddenly getting reality check, lol
Click to expand...

It's a challenge many of us face when we get back to riding in America. I made some new friends from New England who came with me on an Alps tour and experienced the difference in riding dynamics between here and there. We got together for a "spirited" mid-week ride for several days in the low mountains/hills of upstate VT and NY this past July where we had the roads mostly to ourselves. It was fun to let loose a bit riding "Euro" style. Don't get to do that very often here.
 
ST1100Y said:
Over here
€ 1200,- for the theoretical training...
€ 800,- for 10 guided riding hours (the mandatory minimum BTW, more required if you lack in skills)...
€ 180,- for the mandatory 2 motorway riding hours...
insurance, pre-test fees, final DMV test fees, DMV fees for issuing your license, etc...
Your estimate seems to cover it quite good...
Click to expand...
Versus for example in NJ (and I assume similar to other states) you pay about $300 for a few hours class on a Friday evening, then ful day practice on an empty lot on Saturday and half day Sunday, and a test among the cones at the same lot later on.

BTW, to get driving license is even simpler, and no mandatory lessons.

So there you go.
Come to America, get your license, come back home and maybe you can simply replace it with the local one
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom